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While this is addressed at countries I really would like western companies to take their responsibility in this matter. For example time and time again the sup

While this is addressed at countries I really would like western companies to take their responsibility in this matter. For example time and time again the supply chain of Apple becomes "contaminated" with forced labor by Uyghurs. And nothing ever really changes. Sure, the supplier in question gets banned (something that literally takes years to happen). But then after a while another supplier turns up which uses forced labor. Apple is actually one of the few companies that is big enough and has the resources to move production somewhere where forced labor isn't an issue. But they don't even make an effort.

skinkestek 5y ago
At this point I'd already be OK to pay 10% more for an equivalent certified China free phone. E.g. I paid around $600 for my phone. If there was a rack next to it with the exact same model except it was certified China free and $60 more expensive I'd pick that. Edit: thinking about it it is also more than 10% and significantly more on smaller purchases. That said, nothing against Chinese people. I'm on friendly terms with the Chinese at work, ny Chinese neighbours etc etc. This is only about the CCP.
- jpgvm 5y ago
  Either the premium would be much more than 10% or the labor problems would just manifest elsewhere. Current consumerism is built on near zero cost labor and unfortunately corporate greed and consumer ignorance greatly outstrips and motivation to change this.
  - pharke 5y ago
    Automation should have been the answer instead of offshoring to cheap labor.
    - jpgvm 5y ago
      Automation is harder than people give it credit and as a result more expensive than cheap labor. Ultimately companies are about delivering shareholder value and ESG investing hasn't been a thing until relatively recently so there has been no motivation on these fronts. Wishing it isn't so isn't the same as reality I am afraid.
    - zepto 5y ago
      Automation isn’t good enough yet. Making iPhones by hand was critical for Apple to build a superior product to Nokia who heavily used automation. It may be the answer in future though.
- fsflover 5y ago
  > certified China free and $60 more expensive Unfortunately it is a bit more expensive than that: https://puri.sm/products/librem-5-usa https://puri.sm/products/librem-5-usa. Alternatively, have a look at https://www.fairphone.com/en/ https://www.fairphone.com/en/.
  - skinkestek 5y ago
    Ok, update: My phone is an iPhone. I want an iPhone, produced at Apple scale, just produced outside of China. And yes, there are probably a number of other places I don't want it to be produced, but let us start with the place that literally used Falun Gong practitioners as spare parts and that literally run government sanctioned forced sterilization programs for certain ethnicities (unlike the US where one doctors action caused worldwide news coverage because of the same.)
    - fsflover 5y ago
      > I want an iPhone, produced at Apple scale, just produced outside of China. Apple does not seem to care much about repressions or human rights: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26644216 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26644216 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25607386 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25607386
      - skinkestek 5y ago
        Totally besides the point. They care about money and I say I'd pay more money for a certified China free iPhone.
        fsflover 5y ago
        > I'd pay more money > produced at Apple scale How many people do you think will do the same? The money is the reason why Apple doesn't care.
        skinkestek 5y ago
- 88840-8855 5y ago
  1. I agree with that surcharge. But I would like to have the option to choose: the cheaper one from China or the +30% one made in the USA/EU one. 2. Please stop saying this "it is only the CCP, Chinese are OK". 100 million people are in the CCP and the approval rating of the CCP is extremly high. I worked in China, I used to travel to China very often (before the Covid crisis happened). Normal people are very much positive towards the CCP. I my eyes this "I have the CCP, but Chinese people are OK" argument is flawed. You could argue that you oppose the system of the PRC and you favor the democratic system, but "CCP BAD, PEOPLE OK" is flawed and speaks against hundreds of million of Chinese people. And now, downvote me into the oblivion, because my reply is not going mainstream - as always. A poll of nearly 20,000 people carried out by Cary Wu from the York University in Ontario Canada in 2020 found that Chinese people’s trust in their own state government had risen to 98 per cent." https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10670564.2021.1893558 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10670564.2021.18...
  - skinkestek 5y ago
    Have my upvote, but my point is I'm not angry at any individual Chinese individual that I personally know. Neither do I think they are less worth than us.
  - fsflover 5y ago
    > Normal people are very much positive towards the CCP. Except they have no idea what CCP are actually doing due to the propaganda. In the same way, most Americans think that Snowden is a traitor.
  - trnglina 5y ago
    Saying that Chinese people are okay, and are not necessarily represented by the actions of the Chinese state, isn't about anything more than trying to prevent violence and hate from being targeted towards ethically East Asian-looking people. There is precedence for this kind of violence, and if we're angry at China for human rights abuses, we should not breed an environment in which the human rights of Chinese people are put at risk in other countries.
Dah00n 5y ago
It sounds good in theory but in reality it is a pipe dream. All the places Apple could move production to are all using what is essentially slave labour. Unless you want to pay like three to five times the price and get a product built in, say, Scandinavia. The US is also better of course but not anywhere near perfect so if you really want a "clean" product The US wont do either.
- jsiepkes 5y ago
  > Unless you want to pay like three to five times the price and get a product built in, say, Scandinavia. Sure, if that what it takes to solve the issue then I guess that's what it takes. Or are we seriously going to say slavery isn't a problem as long as as it isn't in our own backyard? So slavery in the 1800's was a problem but we can live with the fruits of modern day forced labor since we want our cheap iPhone?
  - lmz 5y ago
    Ethics are flexible. e.g. Westwards expansion and killing off the natives wasn't a problem in the 1800s but is only a problem now.
    - ctack 5y ago
      Isn’t that what progress is all about though? We are maturing as a society, or are at least trying to.
      - lmz 5y ago
        However when a side uses such methods, and then retains its advantages while now vilifying other countries for trying to do the same while catching up it just seems a touch hypocritical / "pulling the ladder up".
        emptysongglass 5y ago
        What are you arguing? That side genocided in the past so other side please go ahead and do so now? Do you realize how absurdly callous that sounds? This isn't a board game we're playing with wooden figures for pieces. These are human lives. We have a chance to do something about these people who are suffering today, now.
redis_mlc 5y ago
It's worse than you think. US supply chains aren't merely "contaminated" with Chinese slave labor - most Chinese prisoners are being used as slave labor. The reason is that the CCP is a technocracy - it doesn't make any sense to the CCP to feed and house prisoners who don't generate revenue, or who can't donate organs ASAP.
EvilEy3 5y ago
> While this is addressed at countries I really would like western companies to take their responsibility in this matter. No thanks. This is not up for companies to do.
angio 5y ago
> For example time and time again the supply chain of Apple becomes "contaminated" with forced labor by Uyghurs. More likely, companies will start discriminating against non-han employees to avoid being accused of forced labour. That seems more practical than moving production out of China.
undfg 5y ago
People have voted with their wallets. They have voted that they don't care.

skinkestek 5y ago

At this point I'd already be OK to pay 10% more for an equivalent certified China free phone. E.g. I paid around $600 for my phone. If there was a rack next to it with the exact same model except it was certified China free and $60 more expensive I'd pick that. Edit: thinking about it it is also more than 10% and significantly more on smaller purchases. That said, nothing against Chinese people. I'm on friendly terms with the Chinese at work, ny Chinese neighbours etc etc. This is only about the CCP.

jpgvm 5y ago
Either the premium would be much more than 10% or the labor problems would just manifest elsewhere. Current consumerism is built on near zero cost labor and unfortunately corporate greed and consumer ignorance greatly outstrips and motivation to change this.
- pharke 5y ago
  Automation should have been the answer instead of offshoring to cheap labor.
  - jpgvm 5y ago
    Automation is harder than people give it credit and as a result more expensive than cheap labor. Ultimately companies are about delivering shareholder value and ESG investing hasn't been a thing until relatively recently so there has been no motivation on these fronts. Wishing it isn't so isn't the same as reality I am afraid.
  - zepto 5y ago
    Automation isn’t good enough yet. Making iPhones by hand was critical for Apple to build a superior product to Nokia who heavily used automation. It may be the answer in future though.
fsflover 5y ago
> certified China free and $60 more expensive Unfortunately it is a bit more expensive than that: https://puri.sm/products/librem-5-usa https://puri.sm/products/librem-5-usa. Alternatively, have a look at https://www.fairphone.com/en/ https://www.fairphone.com/en/.
- skinkestek 5y ago
  Ok, update: My phone is an iPhone. I want an iPhone, produced at Apple scale, just produced outside of China. And yes, there are probably a number of other places I don't want it to be produced, but let us start with the place that literally used Falun Gong practitioners as spare parts and that literally run government sanctioned forced sterilization programs for certain ethnicities (unlike the US where one doctors action caused worldwide news coverage because of the same.)
  - fsflover 5y ago
    > I want an iPhone, produced at Apple scale, just produced outside of China. Apple does not seem to care much about repressions or human rights: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26644216 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26644216 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25607386 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25607386
    - skinkestek 5y ago
      Totally besides the point. They care about money and I say I'd pay more money for a certified China free iPhone.
      - fsflover 5y ago
        > I'd pay more money > produced at Apple scale How many people do you think will do the same? The money is the reason why Apple doesn't care.
        skinkestek 5y ago
88840-8855 5y ago
1. I agree with that surcharge. But I would like to have the option to choose: the cheaper one from China or the +30% one made in the USA/EU one. 2. Please stop saying this "it is only the CCP, Chinese are OK". 100 million people are in the CCP and the approval rating of the CCP is extremly high. I worked in China, I used to travel to China very often (before the Covid crisis happened). Normal people are very much positive towards the CCP. I my eyes this "I have the CCP, but Chinese people are OK" argument is flawed. You could argue that you oppose the system of the PRC and you favor the democratic system, but "CCP BAD, PEOPLE OK" is flawed and speaks against hundreds of million of Chinese people. And now, downvote me into the oblivion, because my reply is not going mainstream - as always. A poll of nearly 20,000 people carried out by Cary Wu from the York University in Ontario Canada in 2020 found that Chinese people’s trust in their own state government had risen to 98 per cent." https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10670564.2021.1893558 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10670564.2021.18...
- skinkestek 5y ago
  Have my upvote, but my point is I'm not angry at any individual Chinese individual that I personally know. Neither do I think they are less worth than us.
- fsflover 5y ago
  > Normal people are very much positive towards the CCP. Except they have no idea what CCP are actually doing due to the propaganda. In the same way, most Americans think that Snowden is a traitor.
- trnglina 5y ago
  Saying that Chinese people are okay, and are not necessarily represented by the actions of the Chinese state, isn't about anything more than trying to prevent violence and hate from being targeted towards ethically East Asian-looking people. There is precedence for this kind of violence, and if we're angry at China for human rights abuses, we should not breed an environment in which the human rights of Chinese people are put at risk in other countries.

Dah00n 5y ago

It sounds good in theory but in reality it is a pipe dream. All the places Apple could move production to are all using what is essentially slave labour. Unless you want to pay like three to five times the price and get a product built in, say, Scandinavia. The US is also better of course but not anywhere near perfect so if you really want a "clean" product The US wont do either.

jsiepkes 5y ago
> Unless you want to pay like three to five times the price and get a product built in, say, Scandinavia. Sure, if that what it takes to solve the issue then I guess that's what it takes. Or are we seriously going to say slavery isn't a problem as long as as it isn't in our own backyard? So slavery in the 1800's was a problem but we can live with the fruits of modern day forced labor since we want our cheap iPhone?
- lmz 5y ago
  Ethics are flexible. e.g. Westwards expansion and killing off the natives wasn't a problem in the 1800s but is only a problem now.
  - ctack 5y ago
    Isn’t that what progress is all about though? We are maturing as a society, or are at least trying to.
    - lmz 5y ago
      However when a side uses such methods, and then retains its advantages while now vilifying other countries for trying to do the same while catching up it just seems a touch hypocritical / "pulling the ladder up".
      - emptysongglass 5y ago
        What are you arguing? That side genocided in the past so other side please go ahead and do so now? Do you realize how absurdly callous that sounds? This isn't a board game we're playing with wooden figures for pieces. These are human lives. We have a chance to do something about these people who are suffering today, now.

redis_mlc 5y ago

It's worse than you think. US supply chains aren't merely "contaminated" with Chinese slave labor - most Chinese prisoners are being used as slave labor. The reason is that the CCP is a technocracy - it doesn't make any sense to the CCP to feed and house prisoners who don't generate revenue, or who can't donate organs ASAP.

EvilEy3 5y ago

> While this is addressed at countries I really would like western companies to take their responsibility in this matter. No thanks. This is not up for companies to do.

angio 5y ago

> For example time and time again the supply chain of Apple becomes "contaminated" with forced labor by Uyghurs. More likely, companies will start discriminating against non-han employees to avoid being accused of forced labour. That seems more practical than moving production out of China.

undfg 5y ago

People have voted with their wallets. They have voted that they don't care.