6 ms·

> expose themselves to some hands on machining... like, even just a few hours on an old decrepit mill/lathe. Excuse me but as a pro in this field I have to rai

> expose themselves to some hands on machining... like, even just a few hours on an old decrepit mill/lathe. Excuse me but as a pro in this field I have to raise an objection. There are aptitude tests just for the education because some people who are otherwise brilliant are absolute terrors, a dangers to themselves and others when presented with machine tools. Trial and error works very differently when you focus enough pressure into carbide to cut steel like it was butter. You should watch the horriffic videos of people being turned into bloody messes on machine tools and THEN decide if this is something you want to try. Nobody knows in advance if they belong in the danger-category but school instructors are quick to spot them and talk them out of the field. If you are adamant on going at it on your own, stick to tools which don't output more than 1000W. In a panic you can produce that much power and you might only lose a finger instead of your life. ALWAYS pause and think about what you are going to do the very next moment and what you expect will happen. I'm sorry if it sounds like gatekeeping. Those videos are very convincing that the gate is there for a reason.

quartesixte 5y ago
I’m pretty sure a few hours on a Haas VF3 or ST20 running a simple part under supervision will be safe enough. I don’t think anyone in their right mind will be handing over the keys to a roomsized VTL any time soon...hopefully... Manual machines on the other hand—absolute death traps.
- ganzuul 5y ago
  Getting your hands on a barely serviceable manual machine is easy though, which is why I started worrying. If the machine is out of production there might be something seriously wrong with it and if a novice starts compensating for the fault then the margin of error approaches zero. Compund this with youtubers not uploading when they made a dangerous or embarrassing mistake and things start to look a lot more doable han they actually are.
- auxym 5y ago
  I manage a fablab used by grad students. We have both manual and CNC machines. Haas, too, but the cheaper stuff (TM and an older OM, VF stuf is $$$ for research budgets). The eternal compromise is this: it's way easier to dismember or kill yourself on a manual machine (https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/14/nyregion/yale-student-dies-in-machine-shop-accident.html https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/14/nyregion/yale-student-die...). However, it's even easier to seriously fuck up an expensive CNC mill with a programming mistake. Serisouly, these machine can and will destroy themselves if you tell them to, no questions asked or warnings. One single bug in your g-code and and there goes a 15K$ set of spindle bearings or worst. Of course, a few tens of thousands down the drain is still better than dismemberment. But that also means that sometimes our machines are down for months or years until we can get a new grant to fix them.
  - quartesixte 5y ago
    Ah yeah I’m on the industry side of things, where such fixes just get expensed out the next day...can’t imagine trying to get a grant for every problem...
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
pasabagi 5y ago
Are they really so dangerous? I've generally worked with the rule of thumb: glasses, no dangly bits, don't touch anything, don't use your hand as a machine vice, and so far, no injuries. My feeling was that since metalworking machines are usually relatively slow and not that grabby, they were safer than, for example, a circular saw. I mean, that's not a high bar, but nobody is saying that people shouldn't do hobby woodwork.
- iancmceachern 5y ago
  Yes, they are unbelievable dangerous. They can kill you at 1 rpm, speed doesn't matter. I've heard (and seen myself) many horror stories. Long hair, or anything dangling, can easily get caught in the chuck of a lathe, even of only going a 1 rpm, and pull the operators head into the moving machinery before anyone has time to react. Metal working machines are among the most dangerous equipment one can operate.
  - pasabagi 5y ago
    I guess from my somewhat small sample of acquaintances, the feeling that woodworkers tend to end up missing bits. Metalworkers tend to have bad hearing, bad eyes, but all of their appendages. Dangly stuff, obviously, is like waving a steak at a bear.
  - bsder 5y ago
    > Metal working machines are among the most dangerous equipment one can operate. No, woodworking stuff is FAR more dangerous. The reason for this is twofold: 1) Metalworking almost always involves workholding. Metalworking almost always has a vise attached to your work and the machine. Metalworking almost always has your hands somewhere other than near the sharp bits. A mill has your hands on the dials. A lathe is similar. A drill press has your hands on a handle. With woodworking, your fingers are almost always the motive force and they almost always pass near the cutting edge even if you are using push sticks and sleds. 2) Woodworking machines rotate far faster Radial and circular saws can remove your hand in a blink. Wood lathes often throw or explode the part while your hands are right next to them. Admittedly, the plural of anecdote is not data. However, almost all the woodworking accidents I have seen have been far more problematic than the metalworking accidents I have seen.
s5300 5y ago
You raise some good points, but I think they're a bit too overreaching. I started working with manual machine shop machines (mills/lathes/presses/all types of saws/water jets/lasers) over a decade ago, and I'm only in my early 20's now. >There are aptitude tests just for the education because some people who are otherwise brilliant are absolute terrors, a dangers to themselves and others This is true. Working as a student shop instructor in Uni, I've had to remove a fair amount of people/literally leave & shut down shop from stress/frustration after people repeatedly nearly lost fingers/limbs doing what they were told not to do multiple times - mainly on table saws. As to why these people are they way they are... I do not know. >Trial and error works very differently when you focus enough pressure into carbide to cut steel like it was butter. No instructor/supervisor should be letting newbies work with steel to begin with, except possibly very mild steel... we have things like 6061 T6 Al and even polymers for demonstration/early learning. It was a good bit until I was allowed to work with stainless steel on mills/lathes. >You should watch the horriffic videos of people being turned into bloody messes on machine tools and THEN decide if this is something you want to try. I grew up doing this, still do, and always recommend it to anybody who's about to start working with machine tools. I have yet to meet an instructor/shop supervisor who doesn't make it very, very clear how easily and instantly everything can maim and kill you. In the 21st century, if there are those who don't do this... that's just unfortunate. In the end - mills, and especially lathes, are honestly highly predictable machines. It's quite hard for things to go wrong with them aside from tool crash/breaking, which you won't really be in a position to be hurt by. There are some machine tools that are inherently more dangerous - but - nothing comes close to how fucking dangerous a tablesaw is. I consider a tablesaw to be the most dangerous and unpredictable tool I use, as does the person I learned from who's been an industry/custom fab machinist for over 40 years. And tablesaws can be found everywhere, typically without much restriction, if any, to begin using. The sawstop is cool, but I really fucking hate them for not releasing the patent to it for all to use.

quartesixte 5y ago

I’m pretty sure a few hours on a Haas VF3 or ST20 running a simple part under supervision will be safe enough. I don’t think anyone in their right mind will be handing over the keys to a roomsized VTL any time soon...hopefully... Manual machines on the other hand—absolute death traps.

ganzuul 5y ago
Getting your hands on a barely serviceable manual machine is easy though, which is why I started worrying. If the machine is out of production there might be something seriously wrong with it and if a novice starts compensating for the fault then the margin of error approaches zero. Compund this with youtubers not uploading when they made a dangerous or embarrassing mistake and things start to look a lot more doable han they actually are.
auxym 5y ago
I manage a fablab used by grad students. We have both manual and CNC machines. Haas, too, but the cheaper stuff (TM and an older OM, VF stuf is $$$ for research budgets). The eternal compromise is this: it's way easier to dismember or kill yourself on a manual machine (https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/14/nyregion/yale-student-dies-in-machine-shop-accident.html https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/14/nyregion/yale-student-die...). However, it's even easier to seriously fuck up an expensive CNC mill with a programming mistake. Serisouly, these machine can and will destroy themselves if you tell them to, no questions asked or warnings. One single bug in your g-code and and there goes a 15K$ set of spindle bearings or worst. Of course, a few tens of thousands down the drain is still better than dismemberment. But that also means that sometimes our machines are down for months or years until we can get a new grant to fix them.
- quartesixte 5y ago
  Ah yeah I’m on the industry side of things, where such fixes just get expensed out the next day...can’t imagine trying to get a grant for every problem...

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

pasabagi 5y ago

Are they really so dangerous? I've generally worked with the rule of thumb: glasses, no dangly bits, don't touch anything, don't use your hand as a machine vice, and so far, no injuries. My feeling was that since metalworking machines are usually relatively slow and not that grabby, they were safer than, for example, a circular saw. I mean, that's not a high bar, but nobody is saying that people shouldn't do hobby woodwork.

iancmceachern 5y ago
Yes, they are unbelievable dangerous. They can kill you at 1 rpm, speed doesn't matter. I've heard (and seen myself) many horror stories. Long hair, or anything dangling, can easily get caught in the chuck of a lathe, even of only going a 1 rpm, and pull the operators head into the moving machinery before anyone has time to react. Metal working machines are among the most dangerous equipment one can operate.
- pasabagi 5y ago
  I guess from my somewhat small sample of acquaintances, the feeling that woodworkers tend to end up missing bits. Metalworkers tend to have bad hearing, bad eyes, but all of their appendages. Dangly stuff, obviously, is like waving a steak at a bear.
- bsder 5y ago
  > Metal working machines are among the most dangerous equipment one can operate. No, woodworking stuff is FAR more dangerous. The reason for this is twofold: 1) Metalworking almost always involves workholding. Metalworking almost always has a vise attached to your work and the machine. Metalworking almost always has your hands somewhere other than near the sharp bits. A mill has your hands on the dials. A lathe is similar. A drill press has your hands on a handle. With woodworking, your fingers are almost always the motive force and they almost always pass near the cutting edge even if you are using push sticks and sleds. 2) Woodworking machines rotate far faster Radial and circular saws can remove your hand in a blink. Wood lathes often throw or explode the part while your hands are right next to them. Admittedly, the plural of anecdote is not data. However, almost all the woodworking accidents I have seen have been far more problematic than the metalworking accidents I have seen.

s5300 5y ago

You raise some good points, but I think they're a bit too overreaching. I started working with manual machine shop machines (mills/lathes/presses/all types of saws/water jets/lasers) over a decade ago, and I'm only in my early 20's now. >There are aptitude tests just for the education because some people who are otherwise brilliant are absolute terrors, a dangers to themselves and others This is true. Working as a student shop instructor in Uni, I've had to remove a fair amount of people/literally leave & shut down shop from stress/frustration after people repeatedly nearly lost fingers/limbs doing what they were told not to do multiple times - mainly on table saws. As to why these people are they way they are... I do not know. >Trial and error works very differently when you focus enough pressure into carbide to cut steel like it was butter. No instructor/supervisor should be letting newbies work with steel to begin with, except possibly very mild steel... we have things like 6061 T6 Al and even polymers for demonstration/early learning. It was a good bit until I was allowed to work with stainless steel on mills/lathes. >You should watch the horriffic videos of people being turned into bloody messes on machine tools and THEN decide if this is something you want to try. I grew up doing this, still do, and always recommend it to anybody who's about to start working with machine tools. I have yet to meet an instructor/shop supervisor who doesn't make it very, very clear how easily and instantly everything can maim and kill you. In the 21st century, if there are those who don't do this... that's just unfortunate. In the end - mills, and especially lathes, are honestly highly predictable machines. It's quite hard for things to go wrong with them aside from tool crash/breaking, which you won't really be in a position to be hurt by. There are some machine tools that are inherently more dangerous - but - nothing comes close to how fucking dangerous a tablesaw is. I consider a tablesaw to be the most dangerous and unpredictable tool I use, as does the person I learned from who's been an industry/custom fab machinist for over 40 years. And tablesaws can be found everywhere, typically without much restriction, if any, to begin using. The sawstop is cool, but I really fucking hate them for not releasing the patent to it for all to use.