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There's really no reason to go to university if all you want is to write some Python scripts. University is not vocational training.

vkou 5y ago
> University is not vocational training. I'll believe that when employers stop giving preference to people with university credentials. Until they do that, the primary reason most people go to university for CS will continue to be 'for vocational training.' People follow incentives.
- ma2rten 5y ago
  Employers don't prefer university graduates because universities offer better vocational training. Universities teach scientific thinking which makes students better employees. Universities don't teach specific skills but they teach the underling principles.
  - number6 5y ago
    Employers prefer university graduates because they have to pay extra for good people. And if they have to pay extra they want a kind of certificate that it's worth it plus to justify the extra pay in front of other employees. A degree makes all this easier. Yes scientific thinking is nice but what really matters is that this people can deliver a compkex workload at a given date. In the rarest of cases you actually need a researcher and at that point you want someone with a PhD
- roenxi 5y ago
  If the employers don't want people who have a detailed understanding of academic minutia, they should maybe stop hiring from university courses and set up some sort of vocational system. Just because there is a need for vocational experts doesn't mean the universities should try to fill it. The place in society for universities is not a short-term-practical one.
  - eecc 5y ago
    Yah, they’ve always demanded to see my Engineering degree to even consider my application, only to proceed patronizing me from day one about how the grown-ups do work differently. Now that I’ve put enough years I don’t get the treatment any more, just strenuously opposed with script-kiddie hacks when I put some intellectual effort in what I’m doing. There’s a ton of people out there saddling down the industry who are totally our of their depth and terrified of becoming irrelevant.
  - pjc50 5y ago
    This is a very minority view, unfortunately. The politics of UK higher education has been completely marketized, and university courses are ranked by what salary the graduates can achieve. Arts funding is being drastically cut: https://www.theartnewspaper.com/news/plans-to-cut-higher-education-arts-courses-by-50 https://www.theartnewspaper.com/news/plans-to-cut-higher-edu... partly because arts graduates make less and partly because studying liberal arts makes students liberal, which the government perceives as a threat.
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    If the employers don't want people who have a detailed understanding of academic minutiæ, why do they spend so much time testing their prospective hires for detailed understanding of academic minutiæ?
  - vkou 5y ago
    As an employer, why should I spend money, time, and attention on setting up a vocational system when I can just keep doing what I'm doing, and have other people spend money, time, and attention in the process of educating my employees?
barry-cotter 5y ago
> University is not vocational training. University started out as a trade school for the clergy, then added law and medicine, and then became a finishing school. At all points the median student was more interested in drinking than studying. Scholarship has always been a minority pursuit at universities and research universities haven’t even existed for 300 years. Universities are now and always have been vocational institutions. The supply of idle rich who don’t need a job has never been all that high.
- onethought 5y ago
  ... I'm not sure anything you said is true. Unless I'm misunderstanding you. See Cambridge as a counter example of everything you said: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Cambridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Cambridge
  - exdsq 5y ago
    I've found that for topics like this, the vast majority of Hacker News thinks the world began in 1776. Saying this, the Universities of Oxford and Paris do meet GPs argument - there were heavily theologian until fairly recently. Cambridge was too until the 16th century.
    - barry-cotter 5y ago
      Also Bologna, the oldest and first university in Christendom. Notice that all of the subjects studied are either vocational, i.e. they lead to jobs, or the liberal arts, which are a prerequisite for studying theology. > The university arose around mutual aid societies (known as universitates scholarium) of foreign students called "nations" (as they were grouped by nationality) for protection against city laws which imposed collective punishment on foreigners for the crimes and debts of their countrymen. These students then hired scholars from the city's pre-existing lay and ecclesiastical schools to teach them subjects such as liberal arts, notarial law, theology, and ars dictaminis (scrivenery).[17] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Bologna https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Bologna
- 5y ago

vkou 5y ago

> University is not vocational training. I'll believe that when employers stop giving preference to people with university credentials. Until they do that, the primary reason most people go to university for CS will continue to be 'for vocational training.' People follow incentives.

ma2rten 5y ago
Employers don't prefer university graduates because universities offer better vocational training. Universities teach scientific thinking which makes students better employees. Universities don't teach specific skills but they teach the underling principles.
- number6 5y ago
  Employers prefer university graduates because they have to pay extra for good people. And if they have to pay extra they want a kind of certificate that it's worth it plus to justify the extra pay in front of other employees. A degree makes all this easier. Yes scientific thinking is nice but what really matters is that this people can deliver a compkex workload at a given date. In the rarest of cases you actually need a researcher and at that point you want someone with a PhD
roenxi 5y ago
If the employers don't want people who have a detailed understanding of academic minutia, they should maybe stop hiring from university courses and set up some sort of vocational system. Just because there is a need for vocational experts doesn't mean the universities should try to fill it. The place in society for universities is not a short-term-practical one.
- eecc 5y ago
  Yah, they’ve always demanded to see my Engineering degree to even consider my application, only to proceed patronizing me from day one about how the grown-ups do work differently. Now that I’ve put enough years I don’t get the treatment any more, just strenuously opposed with script-kiddie hacks when I put some intellectual effort in what I’m doing. There’s a ton of people out there saddling down the industry who are totally our of their depth and terrified of becoming irrelevant.
- pjc50 5y ago
  This is a very minority view, unfortunately. The politics of UK higher education has been completely marketized, and university courses are ranked by what salary the graduates can achieve. Arts funding is being drastically cut: https://www.theartnewspaper.com/news/plans-to-cut-higher-education-arts-courses-by-50 https://www.theartnewspaper.com/news/plans-to-cut-higher-edu... partly because arts graduates make less and partly because studying liberal arts makes students liberal, which the government perceives as a threat.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  If the employers don't want people who have a detailed understanding of academic minutiæ, why do they spend so much time testing their prospective hires for detailed understanding of academic minutiæ?
- vkou 5y ago
  As an employer, why should I spend money, time, and attention on setting up a vocational system when I can just keep doing what I'm doing, and have other people spend money, time, and attention in the process of educating my employees?

barry-cotter 5y ago

> University is not vocational training. University started out as a trade school for the clergy, then added law and medicine, and then became a finishing school. At all points the median student was more interested in drinking than studying. Scholarship has always been a minority pursuit at universities and research universities haven’t even existed for 300 years. Universities are now and always have been vocational institutions. The supply of idle rich who don’t need a job has never been all that high.

onethought 5y ago
... I'm not sure anything you said is true. Unless I'm misunderstanding you. See Cambridge as a counter example of everything you said: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Cambridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Cambridge
- exdsq 5y ago
  I've found that for topics like this, the vast majority of Hacker News thinks the world began in 1776. Saying this, the Universities of Oxford and Paris do meet GPs argument - there were heavily theologian until fairly recently. Cambridge was too until the 16th century.
  - barry-cotter 5y ago
    Also Bologna, the oldest and first university in Christendom. Notice that all of the subjects studied are either vocational, i.e. they lead to jobs, or the liberal arts, which are a prerequisite for studying theology. > The university arose around mutual aid societies (known as universitates scholarium) of foreign students called "nations" (as they were grouped by nationality) for protection against city laws which imposed collective punishment on foreigners for the crimes and debts of their countrymen. These students then hired scholars from the city's pre-existing lay and ecclesiastical schools to teach them subjects such as liberal arts, notarial law, theology, and ars dictaminis (scrivenery).[17] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Bologna https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Bologna
5y ago