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You missed from your list of alternatives the whole XMPP network. It's a federated model (similar to email/Matrix), self-hostable and there are also public prov

You missed from your list of alternatives the whole XMPP network. It's a federated model (similar to email/Matrix), self-hostable and there are also public providers. The XMPP ecosystem is pretty diverse and predominantly open-source. Personally I'm working on Snikket, which is aiming to be the easiest way to get a group of people onto XMPP (often that's family groups, but also social). We published a blog post comparing the Signal approach with XMPP/Snikket: https://snikket.org/blog/products-vs-protocols/ https://snikket.org/blog/products-vs-protocols/

lucb1e 5y ago
Looks like this Conversations app doesn't do video calling, which kinda makes it a non-competitor compared to all of the alternatives that already exist. I'm aware of XMPP and tried it out back in the MSN days along with IRC, but then Telegram came along which promised encryption and a much better user experience and until not so long ago I believed that Telegram would 'any day now' come around to implementing encryption proper (as everything ICT, from WhatsApp that sent plaintext messages over tcp/443 to websites around the world after LetsEncrypt, all turned on proper encryption, I didn't think that this self-proclaimed privacy-focused messenger would stay behind). And so I found myself in late 2018 starting to more and more doubt Telegram, but by then there were many competitors and Matrix seemed to be the hot thing that everyone was excited about (and it turned out that it didn't even work properly after you turned on encryption, only the unencrypted form seems to be somewhat reliable). XMPP didn't come to mind as potentially having evolved, perhaps because in the decade since MSN, I don't think I heard of a single person using XMPP for end-to-end encrypted calls. Perhaps it's great but... somehow I doubt that I never heard of a functional free decentralized/federated end-to-end encrypted multi-device user-friendly chat and (video) calling system.
- MattJ100 5y ago
  > Looks like this Conversations app doesn't do video calling, which kinda makes it a non-competitor compared to all of the alternatives that already exist. Actually it does, and it works well!
  - lucb1e 5y ago
    Ah, because it's not mentioned in the features. Maybe I should have a closer look at it after all then!
SahAssar 5y ago
I hope that XMPP or matrix wins out and becomes a de-facto standard that everyone uses (like email) over things like slack, signal, whatsapp, telegram, teams and all the rest. What I don't get about Snikket is why it tries to distance/hide itself from XMPP. The homepage does not mention it, the app page only mentions it by saying that Snikket is "Compatible" with Conversations which is also compatible with XMPP. The server page does not mention it at all. Is Snikket XMPP and a few XEPs? Is it something else? Can I use a XMPP client with Snikket? Can I use a Snikket client with a XMPP server? That makes me doubt that Snikket cares about interop with XMPP or the wider ecosystem.
- MattJ100 5y ago
  I'd hope that the blog post goes some way towards explaining that. The ultimate reason is that we're not building something for the 1% of people who know what XMPP is. The protocol used is absolutely irrelevant to most people. Feature set and ease of use matter far more. For the people who do know what a protocol is, it's not hidden information. The perspective to have is that the use of XMPP adds features (federation, security, interoperability) but it does not (and should not) define everything Snikket is to end users.
  - SahAssar 5y ago
    I get that making things understandable to non-techie users is good, but even on pages talking about the server (even on the install guide and the github readme for the server: https://github.com/snikket-im/snikket-server https://github.com/snikket-im/snikket-server) you don't mention XMPP. > it does not (and should not) define everything Snikket is to end users. Does that mean that interop with XMPP is not a feature one should depend on? Is Snikket a XMPP app, a XMPP service, a XMPP fork or is it not XMPP at all despite being based on XMPP software?
    - MattJ100 5y ago
      > even on the install guide and the github readme for the server you don't mention XMPP. Sure, and I don't see a problem with this. It's irrelevant information for an install guide. It probably should be in the readme (which frankly needs an overhaul). However if someone is looking for an "XMPP server" then there is a good chance that they are not in the target audience for Snikket. I happen to also be a developer of Prosody, the XMPP server software Snikket uses. Prosody is an extremely flexible and customisable XMPP server, and most Prosody users love that about it. But a Snikket server is totally opinionated, preconfigured and exposes minimal controls to the admin. > Does that mean that interop with XMPP is not a feature one should depend on? It's a feature you can depend on as much as you can depend on it having e.g. video calls. Removing it would have a negative impact on the project. Replacing it? If there were alternatives and they were interoperable, sure, maybe. Matrix is probably the only alternative that comes close to that, but it has a way to go before it could meet our needs. I consider a switch from XMPP very unlikely. > Is Snikket a XMPP app, a XMPP service, a XMPP fork or is it not XMPP at all despite being based on XMPP software? It's an app and server that implements XMPP. It's not a fork of XMPP (we actively participate in XMPP development). One final thing to note is that Snikket projects, while using standard XMPP, will focus on pushing XMPP forwards, and prioritise this over backwards compatibility with other projects in the XMPP ecosystem. Example: a couple of XMPP clients don't do encrypted calls yet. Snikket calls are encrypted always. We won't compromise on security or usability in the name of backwards compatibility. Related projects such as modernxmpp.org are part of this mission to keep XMPP moving forwards.

lucb1e 5y ago

Looks like this Conversations app doesn't do video calling, which kinda makes it a non-competitor compared to all of the alternatives that already exist. I'm aware of XMPP and tried it out back in the MSN days along with IRC, but then Telegram came along which promised encryption and a much better user experience and until not so long ago I believed that Telegram would 'any day now' come around to implementing encryption proper (as everything ICT, from WhatsApp that sent plaintext messages over tcp/443 to websites around the world after LetsEncrypt, all turned on proper encryption, I didn't think that this self-proclaimed privacy-focused messenger would stay behind). And so I found myself in late 2018 starting to more and more doubt Telegram, but by then there were many competitors and Matrix seemed to be the hot thing that everyone was excited about (and it turned out that it didn't even work properly after you turned on encryption, only the unencrypted form seems to be somewhat reliable). XMPP didn't come to mind as potentially having evolved, perhaps because in the decade since MSN, I don't think I heard of a single person using XMPP for end-to-end encrypted calls. Perhaps it's great but... somehow I doubt that I never heard of a functional free decentralized/federated end-to-end encrypted multi-device user-friendly chat and (video) calling system.

MattJ100 5y ago
> Looks like this Conversations app doesn't do video calling, which kinda makes it a non-competitor compared to all of the alternatives that already exist. Actually it does, and it works well!
- lucb1e 5y ago
  Ah, because it's not mentioned in the features. Maybe I should have a closer look at it after all then!

SahAssar 5y ago

I hope that XMPP or matrix wins out and becomes a de-facto standard that everyone uses (like email) over things like slack, signal, whatsapp, telegram, teams and all the rest. What I don't get about Snikket is why it tries to distance/hide itself from XMPP. The homepage does not mention it, the app page only mentions it by saying that Snikket is "Compatible" with Conversations which is also compatible with XMPP. The server page does not mention it at all. Is Snikket XMPP and a few XEPs? Is it something else? Can I use a XMPP client with Snikket? Can I use a Snikket client with a XMPP server? That makes me doubt that Snikket cares about interop with XMPP or the wider ecosystem.

MattJ100 5y ago
I'd hope that the blog post goes some way towards explaining that. The ultimate reason is that we're not building something for the 1% of people who know what XMPP is. The protocol used is absolutely irrelevant to most people. Feature set and ease of use matter far more. For the people who do know what a protocol is, it's not hidden information. The perspective to have is that the use of XMPP adds features (federation, security, interoperability) but it does not (and should not) define everything Snikket is to end users.
- SahAssar 5y ago
  I get that making things understandable to non-techie users is good, but even on pages talking about the server (even on the install guide and the github readme for the server: https://github.com/snikket-im/snikket-server https://github.com/snikket-im/snikket-server) you don't mention XMPP. > it does not (and should not) define everything Snikket is to end users. Does that mean that interop with XMPP is not a feature one should depend on? Is Snikket a XMPP app, a XMPP service, a XMPP fork or is it not XMPP at all despite being based on XMPP software?
  - MattJ100 5y ago
    > even on the install guide and the github readme for the server you don't mention XMPP. Sure, and I don't see a problem with this. It's irrelevant information for an install guide. It probably should be in the readme (which frankly needs an overhaul). However if someone is looking for an "XMPP server" then there is a good chance that they are not in the target audience for Snikket. I happen to also be a developer of Prosody, the XMPP server software Snikket uses. Prosody is an extremely flexible and customisable XMPP server, and most Prosody users love that about it. But a Snikket server is totally opinionated, preconfigured and exposes minimal controls to the admin. > Does that mean that interop with XMPP is not a feature one should depend on? It's a feature you can depend on as much as you can depend on it having e.g. video calls. Removing it would have a negative impact on the project. Replacing it? If there were alternatives and they were interoperable, sure, maybe. Matrix is probably the only alternative that comes close to that, but it has a way to go before it could meet our needs. I consider a switch from XMPP very unlikely. > Is Snikket a XMPP app, a XMPP service, a XMPP fork or is it not XMPP at all despite being based on XMPP software? It's an app and server that implements XMPP. It's not a fork of XMPP (we actively participate in XMPP development). One final thing to note is that Snikket projects, while using standard XMPP, will focus on pushing XMPP forwards, and prioritise this over backwards compatibility with other projects in the XMPP ecosystem. Example: a couple of XMPP clients don't do encrypted calls yet. Snikket calls are encrypted always. We won't compromise on security or usability in the name of backwards compatibility. Related projects such as modernxmpp.org are part of this mission to keep XMPP moving forwards.