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Xinjiang is indeed highly locked down, and foreign reporters are not allowed to enter most parts of the region unless they are producing content that aligns wit

Xinjiang is indeed highly locked down, and foreign reporters are not allowed to enter most parts of the region unless they are producing content that aligns with the Chinese government's message. Daniel Dumbrill is absolutely not a credible source. Edit: Corrected from "the region" to "most parts of the region". From 2018: > Transportation presents significant obstacles, too. Roughly the size of Alaska, Xinjiang encompasses vast swaths of desert and mountain terrain. Yet journalists are generally confined to a few urban areas, including Urumqi, the provincial capital, and Kashgar, a Uighur cultural hub tucked between the borders of Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan. Those who attempt to drive into the countryside are almost sure to be turned around by officials for contrived reasons—that the area is not designated for foreigners, for example, or that a reporter lacks the authorization to pass. On one occasion, while driving on a deserted road, Chin found himself surrounded by police after a street camera flagged his car as suspicious. “Luckily we were already on our way out of town,” he says. “They were kind enough to give us a police escort to the highway.” > The re-education camps, scattered throughout Xinjiang, are also off-limits. At best, journalists can hope to get close enough to photograph their exteriors, but even then, members of their surveillance detail are likely to step in and demand that the photos be deleted. https://www.cjr.org/analysis/uighur-xinjiang.php https://www.cjr.org/analysis/uighur-xinjiang.php

gre 5y ago
Point me to some sources not associated with Zenz. I would love to get to the bottom of this!
- seppin 5y ago
  Why? You have yet to explain why that researcher isn't credible, and every attack i've seen on him is emotional nonsense and/or clearly Chinese state-backed.
tablespoon 5y ago
> Xinjiang is indeed highly locked down, and foreign reporters are not allowed to enter the region unless they are producing content that aligns with the Chinese government's message. I don't think it's locked down (for non-covid reasons), because I linked an account of the experiences of an NY Times journalist that went there. However, it's definitely true that reporters who aren't there to further the government's message are prevented from doing their jobs buy government minders and police.
- commoner 5y ago
  Let me clarify what I meant by "locked down". The border situation at Xinjiang is exceptionally invasive. The following investigation is from 2019: > Foreigners crossing certain Chinese borders into the Xinjiang region, where authorities are conducting a massive campaign of surveillance and oppression against the local Muslim population, are being forced to install a piece of malware on their phones that gives all of their text messages as well as other pieces of data to the authorities, a collaboration by Motherboard, Süddeutsche Zeitung, the Guardian, the New York Times, and the German public broadcaster NDR has found. > The Android malware, which is installed by a border guard when they physically seize the phone, also scans the tourist or traveller's device for a specific set of files, according to multiple expert analyses of the software. The files authorities are looking for include Islamic extremist content, but also innocuous Islamic material, academic books on Islam by leading researchers, and even music from a Japanese metal band. > In no way is the downloading of tourists’ text messages and other mobile phone data comparable to the treatment of the Uighur population in Xinjiang, who live under the constant gaze of facial recognition systems, CCTV, and physical searches. Last week, VICE News published an undercover documentary detailing some of the human rights abuses and surveillance against the Uighur population. But the malware news shows that the Chinese government’s aggressive style of policing and surveillance in the Xinjiang region has extended to foreigners, too. > (Update: after the publication of this piece, multiple antivirus firms updated their products to flag the app as malware). https://www.vice.com/en/article/7xgame/at-chinese-border-tourists-forced-to-install-a-text-stealing-piece-of-malware https://www.vice.com/en/article/7xgame/at-chinese-border-tou...
  - tablespoon 5y ago
    Yeah, but does that happen on the internal border between Xinjiang and the rest of China? That boarder is more relevant for reporting. However, the surveillance in China is definitely an issue. Journalists have to declare themselves as such in visa applications (or pledge to not do any journalism), all foreigners have to register with the local police wherever they're staying (hotels do this for you behind the scenes), and I think pretty much all long distance travel requires ID. So the government knows who the journalists are, where they are, and can swarm them with minders to manage what they see (and intimidate people from speaking to them). I've read multiple reports that say that's exactly what happens when (good) journalists visit Xinjiang.
justicezyx 5y ago
This current situation is getting worse and worse. Anyone commenting on Xinjiang here never get any truth themselves... Each time I recommend them to watch YT videos from non main-stream media, no one reply back with what they found out... And apparently everyone is happy to bash the credit of mainstream media, except for China/XInjiang, it's like suddenly a bunch of guys never set foot in Xinjiang, start to trusting another bunch of guys also never set foot in Xinjiang, and claim that they are good friends all along... Ridiculous!
- tablespoon 5y ago
  > Each time I recommend them to watch YT videos from non main-stream media, no one reply back with what they found out... Youtube videos from randos aren't very good sources, period, especially on topics like this. I mean, that guy seems like laowhy86's mirror universe twin. > And apparently everyone is happy to bash the credit of mainstream media, except for China/XInjiang, it's like suddenly a bunch of guys never set foot in Xinjiang, start to trusting another bunch of guys also never set foot in Xinjiang, and claim that they are good friends all along... Even the people who bash the MSM rely on it for pretty much all of their information about the outside world. Also, you put far too much weight on "setting foot" somewhere. For instance, would taking a regime-lead guided tour of North Korea (like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24R8JObNNQ4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24R8JObNNQ4) really help anyone understand North Korea at all? It's probably the only way to "set foot" there as a foreigner. The answer is no. You'd get much better understanding reviewing documents (both officially distributed and otherwise), interviewing defectors, and maybe even looking at satellite photos. The highly produced tour would be superfluous (and in this case, potentially dangerous).
  - justicezyx 5y ago
    > Youtube videos from randos aren't very good sources Sure But a rado guy who have not even had the first-hand information, would be an even worse source. That's always been my #1 rule of assessing the reliability of any news reporting. My point still stands, the mainstream media's report on Xinjiang is lazy, they have no first-hand deep reporting. Note that the early reporting by Vice is the right approach [1]. But it still suffers from the same inconsideration to the different cultural and political aspects of Chinese society. For example, when reporters are followed by government employees, that's the usual lazy bureaucratic reactions to western media. Those are not evidences of "vanishing Uyghurs". Instead, if they just pretend to be normal travellers, and hop on trains, on bus, on the street, and gather the information through small talks and gossips with real locals, they'll have much more freedom to reach deeper. No, they dont think they should be restricted at all. They believe in free press; which was never been established in China since the unification in Qin dynasty. They believe that news reporting is so universally believed that, they would get whatever truth they seek just by showcasing their face. From a larger scope, government in US enjoys an legitimacy through voting democracy. So they usually do not care much about criticism about their performance from media. Individuals certainly are much more sensitive to such reporting, but that's same for Chinese beauractics. That's different in China, criticism to government performance is questioning the legitimacy. So the default contract is that media cannot openly criticize government, but individuals are given plenty of channels to ask for improvements. Essentially, China runs like a big corp. It wont allow individual to openly criticize the leadership. But it allows a lot of channels to offer suggestions. So the working approach, for US government, is to establish non-public channels, and inquiry the situation directly, and ask for the open dialogue in private. And obviously, that's what George Bush (the old one) did regarding 1989's Tiananmen Protest [5]. Basically, he asked for the information through direct channel, and learned what's going, and assessed from a balanced view. And frankly, at this stage of China, voting democracy does not work in China. At least 20% of the population who went through Cultural Revolution still believes the fierce class struggle (age older than 45, just given an idea, there is no statistics). (The vocal voices who argue no one likes Cultural Revolution are unanimously intellectuals, who were suffering from the wrong accusations, which is understandable). And the colleague educated population is only 25% for 2 year equivalent, and 14% for 4 year equivalent. There has never been any successful deployment of voting democracy outside of US for decently sized countries, let alone the largest country on earth. Once China learned the techniques of organizing the society with more self-directed citizens, the people will naturally ask for more independence. The historical trend has been showing a steadily improvement of Chinese people's awareness of their rights. You may believe in the so-called regression of personal freedom after Xi's ascension to power. But in reality, it's more of a sentiment towards competition with US, not that anyone forgetting what happened before. And for that, because of the vast size of China, YT videos, even rando ones are more useful than media reports, because they are showing nuances. As for Daniel, "like laowhy86's mirror universe twin". Exactly, that's what Daniel stands for, and I have the same assessment as well. But the truth is that, I do watch both. Although laowhy86 has gradually showing behaviors that are based on racial biases, and I no longer follow them only because I no longer follow much of the same content from Daniel and laowhy86 as a whole. Obviously their content is heavily temporary, follows certain trendy topics, and after a while everyone sees the futility to see diversity from individuals, because individuals are always, I mean, shows individual preferences. > Even the people who bash the MSM rely on it for pretty much all of their information about the outside world. That's the problem, right? One should start realize that their preferred media might not have the 1st-hand information on other regions of the world. And start looking for that. I know very well that CCTV does not show negative staff about China. But it's obviously impressive to be able to showcase a lot of real achievement of the Chinese people. As for US mainstream media, unfortunately, their hostility towards China drove me off just like laowhy86. They simply cannot even consider dial the balance of reporting a little bit. For example, China was US' defacto ally during the cold war, China countered USSR's influence in Asia, even started a war to Vietnam, who was supported by USSR to invade Cambodia and Thailand. China was the most important ally of US during cold war [3] because of its pressure to USSR from inside the communist bloc. Considering the historical importance of Cold war and its victory by the western world, don't you think China deserves some mentioning. No, never... not even a hint. Look at also the Dixie Mission [2], which also correctly predicted the outcome of China's political struggle. Given the widespread debate on "who lost China", did anyone give balanced report on Dixie Mission? Very little. I mean, at the time, Mao and CCP like US very much, at least not less than towards USSR. If you read the Dixie Mission report, you might find that the observers actually saw a lot of first-hand situations of the CCP controlled area, that gives a complete picture, not some biased reports by people sitting in the white house or Shanghai's foreign controlled areas. If Dixie report was treated with balanced view, there might not even be a cold war at all... As CCP explicitly seeks the support from US at the time. > Also, you put far too much weight on "setting foot" somewhere. No, I have not put enough. I haven't visited Xinjiang, after the 75 incident [4], because I am concerned about the safety. I intend to visit Xinjiang myself; and talk to the people. I remain distrust the 1 million Uygur story. But I have no doubt that there are issues within the area that requires continued effort to solve. And I need to see it through my own eyes to be confident about my judgement. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7AYyUqrMuQ&ab_channel=VICENews https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7AYyUqrMuQ&ab_channel=VICEN... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dixie_Mission https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dixie_Mission [3] https://www.oxfordhandbooks.com/view/10.1093/oxfordhb/9780199236961.001.0001/oxfordhb-9780199236961-e-8 https://www.oxfordhandbooks.com/view/10.1093/oxfordhb/978019... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_2009_%C3%9Cr%C3%BCmqi_riots https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_2009_%C3%9Cr%C3%BCmqi_rio... [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests

gre 5y ago

Point me to some sources not associated with Zenz. I would love to get to the bottom of this!

seppin 5y ago
Why? You have yet to explain why that researcher isn't credible, and every attack i've seen on him is emotional nonsense and/or clearly Chinese state-backed.

tablespoon 5y ago

> Xinjiang is indeed highly locked down, and foreign reporters are not allowed to enter the region unless they are producing content that aligns with the Chinese government's message. I don't think it's locked down (for non-covid reasons), because I linked an account of the experiences of an NY Times journalist that went there. However, it's definitely true that reporters who aren't there to further the government's message are prevented from doing their jobs buy government minders and police.

commoner 5y ago
Let me clarify what I meant by "locked down". The border situation at Xinjiang is exceptionally invasive. The following investigation is from 2019: > Foreigners crossing certain Chinese borders into the Xinjiang region, where authorities are conducting a massive campaign of surveillance and oppression against the local Muslim population, are being forced to install a piece of malware on their phones that gives all of their text messages as well as other pieces of data to the authorities, a collaboration by Motherboard, Süddeutsche Zeitung, the Guardian, the New York Times, and the German public broadcaster NDR has found. > The Android malware, which is installed by a border guard when they physically seize the phone, also scans the tourist or traveller's device for a specific set of files, according to multiple expert analyses of the software. The files authorities are looking for include Islamic extremist content, but also innocuous Islamic material, academic books on Islam by leading researchers, and even music from a Japanese metal band. > In no way is the downloading of tourists’ text messages and other mobile phone data comparable to the treatment of the Uighur population in Xinjiang, who live under the constant gaze of facial recognition systems, CCTV, and physical searches. Last week, VICE News published an undercover documentary detailing some of the human rights abuses and surveillance against the Uighur population. But the malware news shows that the Chinese government’s aggressive style of policing and surveillance in the Xinjiang region has extended to foreigners, too. > (Update: after the publication of this piece, multiple antivirus firms updated their products to flag the app as malware). https://www.vice.com/en/article/7xgame/at-chinese-border-tourists-forced-to-install-a-text-stealing-piece-of-malware https://www.vice.com/en/article/7xgame/at-chinese-border-tou...
- tablespoon 5y ago
  Yeah, but does that happen on the internal border between Xinjiang and the rest of China? That boarder is more relevant for reporting. However, the surveillance in China is definitely an issue. Journalists have to declare themselves as such in visa applications (or pledge to not do any journalism), all foreigners have to register with the local police wherever they're staying (hotels do this for you behind the scenes), and I think pretty much all long distance travel requires ID. So the government knows who the journalists are, where they are, and can swarm them with minders to manage what they see (and intimidate people from speaking to them). I've read multiple reports that say that's exactly what happens when (good) journalists visit Xinjiang.

justicezyx 5y ago

This current situation is getting worse and worse. Anyone commenting on Xinjiang here never get any truth themselves... Each time I recommend them to watch YT videos from non main-stream media, no one reply back with what they found out... And apparently everyone is happy to bash the credit of mainstream media, except for China/XInjiang, it's like suddenly a bunch of guys never set foot in Xinjiang, start to trusting another bunch of guys also never set foot in Xinjiang, and claim that they are good friends all along... Ridiculous!

tablespoon 5y ago
> Each time I recommend them to watch YT videos from non main-stream media, no one reply back with what they found out... Youtube videos from randos aren't very good sources, period, especially on topics like this. I mean, that guy seems like laowhy86's mirror universe twin. > And apparently everyone is happy to bash the credit of mainstream media, except for China/XInjiang, it's like suddenly a bunch of guys never set foot in Xinjiang, start to trusting another bunch of guys also never set foot in Xinjiang, and claim that they are good friends all along... Even the people who bash the MSM rely on it for pretty much all of their information about the outside world. Also, you put far too much weight on "setting foot" somewhere. For instance, would taking a regime-lead guided tour of North Korea (like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24R8JObNNQ4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24R8JObNNQ4) really help anyone understand North Korea at all? It's probably the only way to "set foot" there as a foreigner. The answer is no. You'd get much better understanding reviewing documents (both officially distributed and otherwise), interviewing defectors, and maybe even looking at satellite photos. The highly produced tour would be superfluous (and in this case, potentially dangerous).
- justicezyx 5y ago
  > Youtube videos from randos aren't very good sources Sure But a rado guy who have not even had the first-hand information, would be an even worse source. That's always been my #1 rule of assessing the reliability of any news reporting. My point still stands, the mainstream media's report on Xinjiang is lazy, they have no first-hand deep reporting. Note that the early reporting by Vice is the right approach [1]. But it still suffers from the same inconsideration to the different cultural and political aspects of Chinese society. For example, when reporters are followed by government employees, that's the usual lazy bureaucratic reactions to western media. Those are not evidences of "vanishing Uyghurs". Instead, if they just pretend to be normal travellers, and hop on trains, on bus, on the street, and gather the information through small talks and gossips with real locals, they'll have much more freedom to reach deeper. No, they dont think they should be restricted at all. They believe in free press; which was never been established in China since the unification in Qin dynasty. They believe that news reporting is so universally believed that, they would get whatever truth they seek just by showcasing their face. From a larger scope, government in US enjoys an legitimacy through voting democracy. So they usually do not care much about criticism about their performance from media. Individuals certainly are much more sensitive to such reporting, but that's same for Chinese beauractics. That's different in China, criticism to government performance is questioning the legitimacy. So the default contract is that media cannot openly criticize government, but individuals are given plenty of channels to ask for improvements. Essentially, China runs like a big corp. It wont allow individual to openly criticize the leadership. But it allows a lot of channels to offer suggestions. So the working approach, for US government, is to establish non-public channels, and inquiry the situation directly, and ask for the open dialogue in private. And obviously, that's what George Bush (the old one) did regarding 1989's Tiananmen Protest [5]. Basically, he asked for the information through direct channel, and learned what's going, and assessed from a balanced view. And frankly, at this stage of China, voting democracy does not work in China. At least 20% of the population who went through Cultural Revolution still believes the fierce class struggle (age older than 45, just given an idea, there is no statistics). (The vocal voices who argue no one likes Cultural Revolution are unanimously intellectuals, who were suffering from the wrong accusations, which is understandable). And the colleague educated population is only 25% for 2 year equivalent, and 14% for 4 year equivalent. There has never been any successful deployment of voting democracy outside of US for decently sized countries, let alone the largest country on earth. Once China learned the techniques of organizing the society with more self-directed citizens, the people will naturally ask for more independence. The historical trend has been showing a steadily improvement of Chinese people's awareness of their rights. You may believe in the so-called regression of personal freedom after Xi's ascension to power. But in reality, it's more of a sentiment towards competition with US, not that anyone forgetting what happened before. And for that, because of the vast size of China, YT videos, even rando ones are more useful than media reports, because they are showing nuances. As for Daniel, "like laowhy86's mirror universe twin". Exactly, that's what Daniel stands for, and I have the same assessment as well. But the truth is that, I do watch both. Although laowhy86 has gradually showing behaviors that are based on racial biases, and I no longer follow them only because I no longer follow much of the same content from Daniel and laowhy86 as a whole. Obviously their content is heavily temporary, follows certain trendy topics, and after a while everyone sees the futility to see diversity from individuals, because individuals are always, I mean, shows individual preferences. > Even the people who bash the MSM rely on it for pretty much all of their information about the outside world. That's the problem, right? One should start realize that their preferred media might not have the 1st-hand information on other regions of the world. And start looking for that. I know very well that CCTV does not show negative staff about China. But it's obviously impressive to be able to showcase a lot of real achievement of the Chinese people. As for US mainstream media, unfortunately, their hostility towards China drove me off just like laowhy86. They simply cannot even consider dial the balance of reporting a little bit. For example, China was US' defacto ally during the cold war, China countered USSR's influence in Asia, even started a war to Vietnam, who was supported by USSR to invade Cambodia and Thailand. China was the most important ally of US during cold war [3] because of its pressure to USSR from inside the communist bloc. Considering the historical importance of Cold war and its victory by the western world, don't you think China deserves some mentioning. No, never... not even a hint. Look at also the Dixie Mission [2], which also correctly predicted the outcome of China's political struggle. Given the widespread debate on "who lost China", did anyone give balanced report on Dixie Mission? Very little. I mean, at the time, Mao and CCP like US very much, at least not less than towards USSR. If you read the Dixie Mission report, you might find that the observers actually saw a lot of first-hand situations of the CCP controlled area, that gives a complete picture, not some biased reports by people sitting in the white house or Shanghai's foreign controlled areas. If Dixie report was treated with balanced view, there might not even be a cold war at all... As CCP explicitly seeks the support from US at the time. > Also, you put far too much weight on "setting foot" somewhere. No, I have not put enough. I haven't visited Xinjiang, after the 75 incident [4], because I am concerned about the safety. I intend to visit Xinjiang myself; and talk to the people. I remain distrust the 1 million Uygur story. But I have no doubt that there are issues within the area that requires continued effort to solve. And I need to see it through my own eyes to be confident about my judgement. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7AYyUqrMuQ&ab_channel=VICENews https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7AYyUqrMuQ&ab_channel=VICEN... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dixie_Mission https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dixie_Mission [3] https://www.oxfordhandbooks.com/view/10.1093/oxfordhb/9780199236961.001.0001/oxfordhb-9780199236961-e-8 https://www.oxfordhandbooks.com/view/10.1093/oxfordhb/978019... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_2009_%C3%9Cr%C3%BCmqi_riots https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_2009_%C3%9Cr%C3%BCmqi_rio... [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests