5 ms·

State Charges 77-Year-Old for 'Practicing Engineering Without a License'

25 points by mkoc 5y ago

wdb 5y ago
Do you need a license to be a software engineer? Sounds like its a protected title like in some other countries
- ranguna 5y ago
  At least not in Portugal, you can work as a software developer even without going to school.
  - enjoyyourlife 5y ago
    That doesn't necessarily mean that you can testify in court as a professional software developer without going to school
    - ranguna 5y ago
      If you wrote the code, you can testify to whatever you want. But commenting on someone else's code, that's probably a job for the engineering order.
- leipert 5y ago
  In a lot of countries “Engineer” is a protected title. (Same in Germany where “Ingenieur” is protected). The term is usually used for mechanical engineers, and the like. Jobs you can only do with a degree, because if you fail, lives could be at stake. We actually had a Canadian colleague request to change the job title in the employment from Software Engineer to Software Developer due to these restrictions.
  - airhead969 5y ago
    That's asinine when there is no associated professional licensure requirement for cobbling together HTML for a mom&pop liquor store. In the US, any type of (non-locomotive) engineer involved in critical engineering design, decisions, implementation, and manufacturing of large-scale or life-safety aspects can or should be a "professional engineer" (PE) so malpractice insurance (EPLI) will cover them and client/employers will hire them. If I say I'm a witch doctor, there is no confusion that I'm not a doctor (of medicine). My undergrad major was Computer Science & Engineering. Do I need an extra certificate to call myself "an engineer?" Nope.
    - leipert 5y ago
      The liquor store wouldn’t be at the top of my list for licensure requirements for software engineers. But what about power plants, cars, trains, aviation, etc. Especially car entertainment systems have been glaring security problems.
- eschaton 5y ago
  Opinions and jurisdictions differ. The problem is that some jurisdiction might define “software engineering” such that an individual without a license (and not under supervision of someone with one) could get in trouble for doing software development rather than describing themselves as an engineer. This is actually something some people want. Don’t let them achieve it.
- airhead969 5y ago
  In the US, there are a dozen or so legally-protected "engineer" title variants and professional designations like "professional engineer" (PE). My degree is accredited for the path of PE, but I would need a reason to go that route. If it's unlisted, then it's fair to use by anyone: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_professional_designations_in_the_United_States#Engineering https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_professional_designati...
totalZero 5y ago
Seems like a clear violation of the First Amendment to use the force of law to prohibit a person from speaking an opinion.
- hytdstd 5y ago
  Not to me. He acted as an engineering consultant or manager in the courtroom. Managers and consultants on engineering projects rightfully require licenses, even if they do nothing but talk in meetings.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - JoshuaAshton 5y ago
    So you should be required to go through a government licensing programme to be able to tell the government they fucked up? :D
    - hytdstd 5y ago
      Yes, absolutely. How is that even relevant? Are you implying that it's acceptable to violate the rule of law when the government makes a mistake? Do you shoot your mailman when they mis-deliver a letter?
      - JoshuaAshton 5y ago
        I find it more amusing you don't see the blatant circular logic flaw in that.
        hytdstd 5y ago
        Can you explain the circular logic flaw? I literally don't know what you're talking about.
      - eschaton 5y ago
agency 5y ago
“All professions are conspiracies against the laity.” - George Bernard Shaw
villgax 5y ago
Lol, software engineering would not be where it is if not for tinkerers.
- tomerv 5y ago
  Right, but this is about civil engineering. I suppose that field also had tinkerers at some point, but today we expect civil engineers to have a diploma and license. Maybe software engineering will go that way too in the future, after the Internet of Unsecured Things finally implodes.
  - airhead969 5y ago
    CE's play with mud. They can go to the beach, get some LEGO, or build a bridge of stones across a brook. ;-)) There are plenty of ways for CE's to "tinker" using civil and mechanical engineering statics and dynamics simulators.
  - airhead969 5y ago
    I know of a civil engineer PE who is an expert in code interpretations of the ASME (not ASCE) boilers and pressure vessels (BPVC) codes. He acts as an expert witness and also makes interpretations for clients who are unsure about the code's meaning. He makes millions because the correct design and use of such items affect lives and property at immense scales. Safety regulations are written in blood that is too easily washed-off.
- airhead969 5y ago
  There is always a space for tinkering. I took apart clocks and small appliances when I was 5. Eventually, my dad had me rebuilding carburetors using the kits because I wasn't strong enough to rebuild alternators yet. Last month, I made Alexa-enabled "tea candle" lanterns by gutting WiFi bedside lights and using privacy paint on said lanterns. As diffusers, I reshaped the diffusers from the original lights. Where the circuit boards appear, I painted the back walls and PCBs matte black to hide them when the lights are on. I dremeled slots in the lantern bases for USB power. What appears to be happening is the over-regulation of title combinations to collect more money by "solving" a professionalization problem that didn't need solving. PE is good enough.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Dracophoenix 5y ago
A similar case happened last year with an unlicensed engineer who composed a public paper vindicating his wife in an alleged traffic stop violation. Source:https://reason.com/2020/03/02/oregon-tried-to-silence-this-engineers-red-light-camera-research-now-experts-say-he-was-right-all-along/?amp https://reason.com/2020/03/02/oregon-tried-to-silence-this-e...
- airhead969 5y ago
  IJ also helped here. https://ij.org/press-release/oregon-engineer-wins-traffic-light-timing-lawsuit/ https://ij.org/press-release/oregon-engineer-wins-traffic-li...

25 points by mkoc 5y ago

wdb 5y ago

Do you need a license to be a software engineer? Sounds like its a protected title like in some other countries

ranguna 5y ago
At least not in Portugal, you can work as a software developer even without going to school.
- enjoyyourlife 5y ago
  That doesn't necessarily mean that you can testify in court as a professional software developer without going to school
  - ranguna 5y ago
    If you wrote the code, you can testify to whatever you want. But commenting on someone else's code, that's probably a job for the engineering order.
leipert 5y ago
In a lot of countries “Engineer” is a protected title. (Same in Germany where “Ingenieur” is protected). The term is usually used for mechanical engineers, and the like. Jobs you can only do with a degree, because if you fail, lives could be at stake. We actually had a Canadian colleague request to change the job title in the employment from Software Engineer to Software Developer due to these restrictions.
- airhead969 5y ago
  That's asinine when there is no associated professional licensure requirement for cobbling together HTML for a mom&pop liquor store. In the US, any type of (non-locomotive) engineer involved in critical engineering design, decisions, implementation, and manufacturing of large-scale or life-safety aspects can or should be a "professional engineer" (PE) so malpractice insurance (EPLI) will cover them and client/employers will hire them. If I say I'm a witch doctor, there is no confusion that I'm not a doctor (of medicine). My undergrad major was Computer Science & Engineering. Do I need an extra certificate to call myself "an engineer?" Nope.
  - leipert 5y ago
    The liquor store wouldn’t be at the top of my list for licensure requirements for software engineers. But what about power plants, cars, trains, aviation, etc. Especially car entertainment systems have been glaring security problems.
eschaton 5y ago
Opinions and jurisdictions differ. The problem is that some jurisdiction might define “software engineering” such that an individual without a license (and not under supervision of someone with one) could get in trouble for doing software development rather than describing themselves as an engineer. This is actually something some people want. Don’t let them achieve it.
airhead969 5y ago
In the US, there are a dozen or so legally-protected "engineer" title variants and professional designations like "professional engineer" (PE). My degree is accredited for the path of PE, but I would need a reason to go that route. If it's unlisted, then it's fair to use by anyone: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_professional_designations_in_the_United_States#Engineering https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_professional_designati...

totalZero 5y ago

Seems like a clear violation of the First Amendment to use the force of law to prohibit a person from speaking an opinion.

hytdstd 5y ago
Not to me. He acted as an engineering consultant or manager in the courtroom. Managers and consultants on engineering projects rightfully require licenses, even if they do nothing but talk in meetings.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- JoshuaAshton 5y ago
  So you should be required to go through a government licensing programme to be able to tell the government they fucked up? :D
  - hytdstd 5y ago
    Yes, absolutely. How is that even relevant? Are you implying that it's acceptable to violate the rule of law when the government makes a mistake? Do you shoot your mailman when they mis-deliver a letter?
    - JoshuaAshton 5y ago
      I find it more amusing you don't see the blatant circular logic flaw in that.
      - hytdstd 5y ago
        Can you explain the circular logic flaw? I literally don't know what you're talking about.
    - eschaton 5y ago

agency 5y ago

“All professions are conspiracies against the laity.” - George Bernard Shaw

villgax 5y ago

Lol, software engineering would not be where it is if not for tinkerers.

tomerv 5y ago
Right, but this is about civil engineering. I suppose that field also had tinkerers at some point, but today we expect civil engineers to have a diploma and license. Maybe software engineering will go that way too in the future, after the Internet of Unsecured Things finally implodes.
- airhead969 5y ago
  CE's play with mud. They can go to the beach, get some LEGO, or build a bridge of stones across a brook. ;-)) There are plenty of ways for CE's to "tinker" using civil and mechanical engineering statics and dynamics simulators.
- airhead969 5y ago
  I know of a civil engineer PE who is an expert in code interpretations of the ASME (not ASCE) boilers and pressure vessels (BPVC) codes. He acts as an expert witness and also makes interpretations for clients who are unsure about the code's meaning. He makes millions because the correct design and use of such items affect lives and property at immense scales. Safety regulations are written in blood that is too easily washed-off.
airhead969 5y ago
There is always a space for tinkering. I took apart clocks and small appliances when I was 5. Eventually, my dad had me rebuilding carburetors using the kits because I wasn't strong enough to rebuild alternators yet. Last month, I made Alexa-enabled "tea candle" lanterns by gutting WiFi bedside lights and using privacy paint on said lanterns. As diffusers, I reshaped the diffusers from the original lights. Where the circuit boards appear, I painted the back walls and PCBs matte black to hide them when the lights are on. I dremeled slots in the lantern bases for USB power. What appears to be happening is the over-regulation of title combinations to collect more money by "solving" a professionalization problem that didn't need solving. PE is good enough.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

Dracophoenix 5y ago

A similar case happened last year with an unlicensed engineer who composed a public paper vindicating his wife in an alleged traffic stop violation. Source:https://reason.com/2020/03/02/oregon-tried-to-silence-this-engineers-red-light-camera-research-now-experts-say-he-was-right-all-along/?amp https://reason.com/2020/03/02/oregon-tried-to-silence-this-e...

airhead969 5y ago
IJ also helped here. https://ij.org/press-release/oregon-engineer-wins-traffic-light-timing-lawsuit/ https://ij.org/press-release/oregon-engineer-wins-traffic-li...