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Or it simply means the student does not have the aptitude for programming. Not everyone does.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
esrauch 5y ago
But the topic is how their view is shaped by the first language they learn. If they learn C first, will their ability to knowledge transfer into other languages happen differently then if they learned Python first? Concretely, I can't fathom how people learn Rust without learning one of C or C++ first, and I'd think the underpinnings of how you understand code and systems is probably different if you are subconsciously mapping new concepts back to Python or Java or whatever.
- lupire 5y ago
  C is very different from C++. Rust isn't more complicated than C++.
  - esrauch 5y ago
    I agree they are different, I really did mean "I don't understand how people learn Rust without first learning one of several languages that are more straightforward/explicit what is on the stack and what is on the heap". C++ overall obviously isn't simpler then Rust; C++ in its entirety so complicated it's like three languages stapled together. But with C++ as first language, you can study programming for 6 months before ever even hearing about std::move, and with Rust you'd need to already learn about move semantics on like week 3, when people are still having trouble with loops
open-source-ux 5y ago
"Or it simply means the student does not have the aptitude for programming. Not everyone does." Some students (and programmers) can excel in one programming language and struggle with a different one. Programmers don't want to admit this because it suggests a superficial focus on syntax. Developers often say: it's semantics that matter in programming, not syntax. But you can't separate syntax from semantics - they are so closely entwined. And for many developers it shapes the way they solve problems (me included). Some programmers develop a deep understanding of semantics that makes them easily see beyond syntax regardless of the language. I'm definitely not one of them. Dare I suggest (with no judgement), that a substantial number of programmers, possibly even the majority, also find it difficult to see beyond syntax for more complex programming topics? Aside: A tweet from Sahil Lavingia (founder of Gumroad) from 2019: "For those who think they can't learn how to code: try another language. I tried PHP a few times and gave up. Then JavaScript: gave up. Then the iPhone came out, I tried iOS development, and everything started to click!" https://twitter.com/shl/status/1173967528017551360 https://twitter.com/shl/status/1173967528017551360

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

But the topic is how their view is shaped by the first language they learn. If they learn C first, will their ability to knowledge transfer into other languages happen differently then if they learned Python first? Concretely, I can't fathom how people learn Rust without learning one of C or C++ first, and I'd think the underpinnings of how you understand code and systems is probably different if you are subconsciously mapping new concepts back to Python or Java or whatever.

lupire 5y ago
C is very different from C++. Rust isn't more complicated than C++.
- esrauch 5y ago
  I agree they are different, I really did mean "I don't understand how people learn Rust without first learning one of several languages that are more straightforward/explicit what is on the stack and what is on the heap". C++ overall obviously isn't simpler then Rust; C++ in its entirety so complicated it's like three languages stapled together. But with C++ as first language, you can study programming for 6 months before ever even hearing about std::move, and with Rust you'd need to already learn about move semantics on like week 3, when people are still having trouble with loops

open-source-ux 5y ago

"Or it simply means the student does not have the aptitude for programming. Not everyone does." Some students (and programmers) can excel in one programming language and struggle with a different one. Programmers don't want to admit this because it suggests a superficial focus on syntax. Developers often say: it's semantics that matter in programming, not syntax. But you can't separate syntax from semantics - they are so closely entwined. And for many developers it shapes the way they solve problems (me included). Some programmers develop a deep understanding of semantics that makes them easily see beyond syntax regardless of the language. I'm definitely not one of them. Dare I suggest (with no judgement), that a substantial number of programmers, possibly even the majority, also find it difficult to see beyond syntax for more complex programming topics? Aside: A tweet from Sahil Lavingia (founder of Gumroad) from 2019: "For those who think they can't learn how to code: try another language. I tried PHP a few times and gave up. Then JavaScript: gave up. Then the iPhone came out, I tried iOS development, and everything started to click!" https://twitter.com/shl/status/1173967528017551360 https://twitter.com/shl/status/1173967528017551360