6 ms·

In that case Israel should follow New Zealand's example and allow all Palestinians to become citizens, with full rights, stop being an ethnostate for Jews, stop

In that case Israel should follow New Zealand's example and allow all Palestinians to become citizens, with full rights, stop being an ethnostate for Jews, stop with the racism and start behaving like the progressive country they pretend to be.

2939223 5y ago
Such behaviour conflicts with a core tenet of Judaism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_as_the_chosen_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_as_the_chosen_people
- wizzwizz4 5y ago
  No it doesn't. > In Judaism, "chosenness" is the belief that the Jews, via descent from the ancient Israelites, are the chosen people, i.e. selected to be in a covenant with God. > This view, however, does not always preclude a belief that God has a relationship with other peoples—rather, Judaism held that God had entered into a covenant with all humankind, and that Jews and non-Jews alike have a relationship with God. Biblical references as well as rabbinic literature support this view: Moses refers to the "God of the spirits of all flesh",[4] and the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible) also identifies prophets outside the community of Israel. Based on these statements, some rabbis theorized that, in the words of Nethanel ibn Fayyumi, a Yemenite Jewish theologian of the 12th century, "God permitted to every people something he forbade to others...[and] God sends a prophet to every people according to their own language."(Levine, 1907/1966) > The Mishnah continues, and states that anyone who kills or saves a single human, not Jewish, life, has done the same (save or kill) to an entire world. The Tosefta, an important supplement to the Mishnah,[5] also states: "Righteous people of all nations have a share in the world to come" (Sanhedrin 105a). Which part of this is about racial supremacy?
  - 2939223 5y ago
    Chosenness by definition is divisive. From antiquity to the present, the idea of being divinely chosen has had powerful and often pernicious effects. If only one group has been divinely chosen then others have not been, and that justifies subjugating them and taking their land. Such rationalization has been used repeatedly, in the most virulent forms of anti-Semitism, in the enslavement and even extermination of aboriginal peoples, and in the confiscation of land by force from those not chosen—be they Canaanites, Jews, Muslims, Africans, Native Americans, Palestinians, and too many others.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Google234 5y ago
If they did that then they would completely cease being a progressive country and would become an Islamist country.
- let_me_ask_this 5y ago
  I just want to point out that this nonsense is Islamophobia and should not be tolerated. Muslims are no less people than anyone else. They are not the cartoonish evil character that you believe them to be.
  - logicchains 5y ago
    >I just want to point out that this nonsense is Islamophobia and should not be tolerated. Muslims are no less people than anyone else. They are not the cartoonish evil character that you believe them to be. He said progressive. Progressive doesn't mean "not evil", it means progressive. Can you name a single Muslim-majority country that allows gay marriage?
    - RobertoG 5y ago
      >Can you name a single Muslim-majority country that allows gay marriage? I think that's a false dichotomy. The question is not if a country is a Muslim-majority country or a Christian-majority country, but if it's secular enough or not.
  - kdjsbdb 5y ago
    are you suggesting we come back to the law against blasphemy because "criticism of Islam should not be tolerated"? Lol
BeFlatXIII 5y ago
Perhaps they ought to set up their constitution to have a military pledged to the maintenance of a purely secular state that will overthrow any overtly religious government, no matter the electoral margins they earned when getting installed.
- let_me_ask_this 5y ago
  Or they could do what Lebanon does and have some mandatory representation from all ethnic groups in all important public institutions. There are definitely ways to make this work, if there is a true willingness to live in peace.
  - wolverine876 5y ago
    Lebanon doesn't seem like such an appealing model ...
  - jdjdbxbfn 5y ago
    What are you talking about? Arabs ARE represented in the Knesset.
- wolverine876 5y ago
  > a military pledged to the maintenance of a purely secular state that will overthrow any overtly religious government That's an idea with a very bad history and no political legitimacy: What grounds does a general have to tell their neighbors what to do? Nobody voted for them. What stops the general from arbitrarily wielding that power? Why vest that power in the military? A civilian institution could make the decision, such as a court interpreting a constitution.
  - guerrilla 5y ago
    I think you're being naive because the military always has that power, regardless of what people want to pretend. What would make it legitmate is that the people agreed to it ahead of time.
wolverine876 5y ago
> allow all Palestinians to become citizens, with full rights, stop being an ethnostate for Jews If that happened, then Palestinians would outnumber Jews and could dominate the country democratically. I can understand the potential for discrimination. That's why the two state solution is often considered the only just solution: Both groups each have a country in which they are the majority. The Israeli right rejects the two state solution, and clearly they reject being a minority, so that only leaves oppression of Palestinians (which is awful and unjust, to avoid any doubt). > the progressive country they pretend to be Israel hasn't pretended to be progressive in awhile. Netanyahu and some of his predecessors made no pretenses about it.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- pydry 5y ago
  >If that happened, then Palestinians would outnumber Jews and could dominate the country democratically This is only a problem because they want a religious ethnostate, not a secular democracy. Apartheid south africa wanted the same thing.
- eitland 5y ago
  > The Israeli right rejects the two state solution, and clearly they reject being a minority, so that only leaves oppression of Palestinians (which is awful and unjust, to avoid any doubt). Actually I'm fairly sure it could have happened at some point if it hadn't been loudly rejected by Arabs.
- jdjdbxbfn 5y ago
  > The Israeli right rejects the two state solution It's the PA who always refused to discuss peace, you should check your facts.
refurb 5y ago
Arabs can be full Israeli citizens, many are being one of the main political parties is an Arab party. Or do you mean citizens in Palestine? Why would Israel make the Palestinians in Gaza full citizens when That’s separate territory from Israel?
- Udik 5y ago
  > Why would Israel make the Palestinians in Gaza full citizens when That’s separate territory from Israel? 1) most of Palestine and Palestinians are not in Gaza, bug in the West Bank 2) if Palestine is separate territory from Israel, why Israel builds its roads and cities on it?
  - refurb 5y ago
    You never answer my question - why would Israel give full citizenship to people in Gaza and let’s add on top parts (Area C) of the West Bank entirely controlled by the Palestinian Authority? And the funny part is, the reason Israel control parts of the West Bank is because they were attacked in 3 wars (1948, 1967, 1972) and won.
    - poisonarena 5y ago
      You are not going to get any answers and your questions/responses will be downvoted and hidden because you are questioning the propaganda
rayiner 5y ago
And it comes down to it: the logic of progressivism inherently demands the end of Israel because it can’t conscience the notion of an ethnostate.
- tptacek 5y ago
  I'm not sure this is the mic drop you think it is, since what you're pushing back on here is the idea that Palestinians living in Israel should be allowed to simultaneously remain in their homes and have full political rights and agency. Which of those two things do you disagree with? You're excluding the middle a lot in these comments, suggesting that the only two valid perspectives on this conflict are "Israel must be an exclusionary ethnostate" and "Hamas is a legitimate actor". It's possible to disagree with both of those statements. People who stick up for Hamas are dumb. Ethnostates are immoral.
  - rayiner 5y ago
    There’s nothing immoral about ethnostates. Not every country needs to be a multiethnic democracy like the US. I agree certain human rights must be respected, but there’s nothing wrong with Israel being structured as a homeland for Jews. To assert otherwise is to elevate notions of non-discrimination above the right to self-determination. My parents’ generation fought a war with Pakistan to have a home for Bangladeshis. (The ethnic group is in the name of the country!) If there was any risk of Bangladeshis losing political control of the country, they’d be entirely within their rights to prevent that.
  - nec4b 5y ago
    >Ethnostates are immoral. Following this logic you may also believe families are immoral.
    - tptacek 5y ago
      In fact I do not.
- glogla 5y ago
  End of Israel _as an entho-state_, which is not necessarily end of Israel as a state. If Nazi Germany could turn into regular Germany, one of the most progressive nations on Earth, so can anyone else.
eitland 5y ago
> In that case Israel should follow New Zealand's example and allow all Palestinians to become citizens, with full rights, stop being an ethnostate for Jews, This would have been somewhat reasonable if it hadn't been for the fact that Jews have been driven out from neighboring countries in larger number than Arabs from Israel.

2939223 5y ago

Such behaviour conflicts with a core tenet of Judaism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_as_the_chosen_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_as_the_chosen_people

wizzwizz4 5y ago
No it doesn't. > In Judaism, "chosenness" is the belief that the Jews, via descent from the ancient Israelites, are the chosen people, i.e. selected to be in a covenant with God. > This view, however, does not always preclude a belief that God has a relationship with other peoples—rather, Judaism held that God had entered into a covenant with all humankind, and that Jews and non-Jews alike have a relationship with God. Biblical references as well as rabbinic literature support this view: Moses refers to the "God of the spirits of all flesh",[4] and the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible) also identifies prophets outside the community of Israel. Based on these statements, some rabbis theorized that, in the words of Nethanel ibn Fayyumi, a Yemenite Jewish theologian of the 12th century, "God permitted to every people something he forbade to others...[and] God sends a prophet to every people according to their own language."(Levine, 1907/1966) > The Mishnah continues, and states that anyone who kills or saves a single human, not Jewish, life, has done the same (save or kill) to an entire world. The Tosefta, an important supplement to the Mishnah,[5] also states: "Righteous people of all nations have a share in the world to come" (Sanhedrin 105a). Which part of this is about racial supremacy?
- 2939223 5y ago
  Chosenness by definition is divisive. From antiquity to the present, the idea of being divinely chosen has had powerful and often pernicious effects. If only one group has been divinely chosen then others have not been, and that justifies subjugating them and taking their land. Such rationalization has been used repeatedly, in the most virulent forms of anti-Semitism, in the enslavement and even extermination of aboriginal peoples, and in the confiscation of land by force from those not chosen—be they Canaanites, Jews, Muslims, Africans, Native Americans, Palestinians, and too many others.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

Google234 5y ago

If they did that then they would completely cease being a progressive country and would become an Islamist country.

let_me_ask_this 5y ago
I just want to point out that this nonsense is Islamophobia and should not be tolerated. Muslims are no less people than anyone else. They are not the cartoonish evil character that you believe them to be.
- logicchains 5y ago
  >I just want to point out that this nonsense is Islamophobia and should not be tolerated. Muslims are no less people than anyone else. They are not the cartoonish evil character that you believe them to be. He said progressive. Progressive doesn't mean "not evil", it means progressive. Can you name a single Muslim-majority country that allows gay marriage?
  - RobertoG 5y ago
    >Can you name a single Muslim-majority country that allows gay marriage? I think that's a false dichotomy. The question is not if a country is a Muslim-majority country or a Christian-majority country, but if it's secular enough or not.
- kdjsbdb 5y ago
  are you suggesting we come back to the law against blasphemy because "criticism of Islam should not be tolerated"? Lol

BeFlatXIII 5y ago

Perhaps they ought to set up their constitution to have a military pledged to the maintenance of a purely secular state that will overthrow any overtly religious government, no matter the electoral margins they earned when getting installed.

let_me_ask_this 5y ago
Or they could do what Lebanon does and have some mandatory representation from all ethnic groups in all important public institutions. There are definitely ways to make this work, if there is a true willingness to live in peace.
- wolverine876 5y ago
  Lebanon doesn't seem like such an appealing model ...
- jdjdbxbfn 5y ago
  What are you talking about? Arabs ARE represented in the Knesset.
wolverine876 5y ago
> a military pledged to the maintenance of a purely secular state that will overthrow any overtly religious government That's an idea with a very bad history and no political legitimacy: What grounds does a general have to tell their neighbors what to do? Nobody voted for them. What stops the general from arbitrarily wielding that power? Why vest that power in the military? A civilian institution could make the decision, such as a court interpreting a constitution.
- guerrilla 5y ago
  I think you're being naive because the military always has that power, regardless of what people want to pretend. What would make it legitmate is that the people agreed to it ahead of time.

wolverine876 5y ago

> allow all Palestinians to become citizens, with full rights, stop being an ethnostate for Jews If that happened, then Palestinians would outnumber Jews and could dominate the country democratically. I can understand the potential for discrimination. That's why the two state solution is often considered the only just solution: Both groups each have a country in which they are the majority. The Israeli right rejects the two state solution, and clearly they reject being a minority, so that only leaves oppression of Palestinians (which is awful and unjust, to avoid any doubt). > the progressive country they pretend to be Israel hasn't pretended to be progressive in awhile. Netanyahu and some of his predecessors made no pretenses about it.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
pydry 5y ago
>If that happened, then Palestinians would outnumber Jews and could dominate the country democratically This is only a problem because they want a religious ethnostate, not a secular democracy. Apartheid south africa wanted the same thing.
eitland 5y ago
> The Israeli right rejects the two state solution, and clearly they reject being a minority, so that only leaves oppression of Palestinians (which is awful and unjust, to avoid any doubt). Actually I'm fairly sure it could have happened at some point if it hadn't been loudly rejected by Arabs.
jdjdbxbfn 5y ago
> The Israeli right rejects the two state solution It's the PA who always refused to discuss peace, you should check your facts.

refurb 5y ago

Arabs can be full Israeli citizens, many are being one of the main political parties is an Arab party. Or do you mean citizens in Palestine? Why would Israel make the Palestinians in Gaza full citizens when That’s separate territory from Israel?

Udik 5y ago
> Why would Israel make the Palestinians in Gaza full citizens when That’s separate territory from Israel? 1) most of Palestine and Palestinians are not in Gaza, bug in the West Bank 2) if Palestine is separate territory from Israel, why Israel builds its roads and cities on it?
- refurb 5y ago
  You never answer my question - why would Israel give full citizenship to people in Gaza and let’s add on top parts (Area C) of the West Bank entirely controlled by the Palestinian Authority? And the funny part is, the reason Israel control parts of the West Bank is because they were attacked in 3 wars (1948, 1967, 1972) and won.
  - poisonarena 5y ago
    You are not going to get any answers and your questions/responses will be downvoted and hidden because you are questioning the propaganda

rayiner 5y ago

And it comes down to it: the logic of progressivism inherently demands the end of Israel because it can’t conscience the notion of an ethnostate.

tptacek 5y ago
I'm not sure this is the mic drop you think it is, since what you're pushing back on here is the idea that Palestinians living in Israel should be allowed to simultaneously remain in their homes and have full political rights and agency. Which of those two things do you disagree with? You're excluding the middle a lot in these comments, suggesting that the only two valid perspectives on this conflict are "Israel must be an exclusionary ethnostate" and "Hamas is a legitimate actor". It's possible to disagree with both of those statements. People who stick up for Hamas are dumb. Ethnostates are immoral.
- rayiner 5y ago
  There’s nothing immoral about ethnostates. Not every country needs to be a multiethnic democracy like the US. I agree certain human rights must be respected, but there’s nothing wrong with Israel being structured as a homeland for Jews. To assert otherwise is to elevate notions of non-discrimination above the right to self-determination. My parents’ generation fought a war with Pakistan to have a home for Bangladeshis. (The ethnic group is in the name of the country!) If there was any risk of Bangladeshis losing political control of the country, they’d be entirely within their rights to prevent that.
- nec4b 5y ago
  >Ethnostates are immoral. Following this logic you may also believe families are immoral.
  - tptacek 5y ago
    In fact I do not.
glogla 5y ago
End of Israel _as an entho-state_, which is not necessarily end of Israel as a state. If Nazi Germany could turn into regular Germany, one of the most progressive nations on Earth, so can anyone else.

eitland 5y ago

> In that case Israel should follow New Zealand's example and allow all Palestinians to become citizens, with full rights, stop being an ethnostate for Jews, This would have been somewhat reasonable if it hadn't been for the fact that Jews have been driven out from neighboring countries in larger number than Arabs from Israel.