5 ms·

I don't understand the worldwide disdain for the concrete paneled construction the article briefly mentions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khrushchyovka https:/

I don't understand the worldwide disdain for the concrete paneled construction the article briefly mentions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khrushchyovka https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khrushchyovka Most of the "badness" people associate with these, IMO, are due more to the fact that 1. in recent times they are inhabited by less well-off people 2. they usually need to be washed or painted, probably because they are inhabited by less well-off people who don't make it a priority 3. to the extent they are seen as crime/drug dens, that's because they have a stigma/are in disrepair so only poor people want to live there. It is possible for them to be nice, even moreso if they are new (and not poorly maintained, 60 years old). See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelenograd https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelenograd as an example of a city with this style (go to Google images for more pictures). The whole city is like a park. From an urban planning perspective, they have a lot of benefits. People can actually end up with a lot of green space in between buildings. They make it easy to set up bus or train-based public transportation, with walking a viable way to navigate toward a hub. The density creates obvious economies of scale in other areas. From a cost perspective, they are inexpensive to construct because of the economies of scale. The article mentions them as one of the few building styles amenable to mass-production/assembly off-site. Probably my main gripe is that they are not often 'mixed use' and could perhaps do with shops on the first floor, though this is partially an artifact of the economic regime under which they were mostly built.

OminousWeapons 5y ago
The worldwide disdain arises from what you said, the additional association with communism / cheapness, and the fact that they are mass produced, generic, and boring, and no one wants to spend a lot of money to get generic and boring.
- nine_k 5y ago
  If McMansions aand cookie-cutter suburban communities are any indication, some still want to spend a lot of money on generic and boring. The reasons must be different.
  - cmrdporcupine 5y ago
    It seems to me... people will spend a lot of money to get a generic, boring, mass produced version of what their parents generation thought was luxurious or classy. McMansions + perfect lawn in a suburb full of curves and crescents; and various kinds of "luxury" cars, big TVs, etc. All things just out of reach of many of our middle class parents or grandparents. So now you've made it when you have it... until you look close and see there's no actual class differentiator in it, no taste to it, no art to it, or any particular advantage to it... Just my, like, opinion, man...
    - goblinux 5y ago
      Totally opinion and preference. I’m a millennial and dying to get out of the city into a master planned community with beautiful lawns and big homes and properties
  - OminousWeapons 5y ago
    McMansions are ugly but they're not boring or generic. Unless you're in a housing development, most are fairly unique. Units in housing developments do suffer from the same stigma though, and a lot of people won't buy them for that very reason, even though they are generally cheaper than units located outside of those developments. The problem is really the combination of all 3 factors. McMansions definitely make people think the inhabitants have no taste, but they don't make people think the inhabitants are poor. Buildings that look like public housing make people think the inhabitants are poor, which is worse for a lot of people.
    - aYsY4dDQ2NrcNzA 5y ago
      Reference materials: https://mcmansionhell.com/ https://mcmansionhell.com/
      - nine_k 5y ago
        That's hilarious! Thanks.
Animats 5y ago
It's hard to rent out all those street level shops. The tenants of a 4-6 story structure can't support those shops. There are not enough residents per shop for that. Such places are not usually convenient to drive to. The SF peninsula is getting way too many of those things. Many shops are vacant.
- marcinzm 5y ago
  >The tenants of a 4-6 story structure can't support those shops. In the polish version of these, the stores are in one building of the cluster of 4+ buildings, generally on the main street of the area. The US has a retail store for every 500 people or so which is about how many fit into a few of these buildings.. >Such places are not usually convenient to drive to. You don't drive to them, you take whatever local public transportation there is or walk. It's dense enough that you can visit all the important stores without driving or leaving your local area. >Many shops are vacant. That has more to do with the increasing rents and commercial rates being locked in for 5+ years. More economical to keep the place vacant for the landlord.
  - Ericson2314 5y ago
    Agree except for the US does have way to much total retail, out of line with other countries. But that's a minor point.
    - marcinzm 5y ago
      Do you have data for that? Having visited a number of countries in Europe, Japan and the US I've found roughly the same number of retail stores (at least in terms of area). The US tends to have fewer but larger stores in my experience. For example, Google indicates that Germany alone has almost as many grocery stores as the US despite being a fraction of the population.
      - Ericson2314 5y ago
        To be clear, I was referring to retail floor area per capita. A quick google gave me https://www.statista.com/statistics/1058852/retail-space-per-capita-selected-countries-worldwide/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1058852/retail-space-per... I wouldn't be surprised, based on my own anecdotal understanding, if the average distance to nearest grocery store is less in Germany.
orthoxerox 5y ago
Seam insulation is an issue, modern apartment blocks in Russia use monolithic concrete instead.
foobar33333 5y ago
Concrete exteriors can look nice. I'm not sure if its just because its newer but I think this building (green one) pulls off raw concrete nicely https://i.imgur.com/gikmvgG.jpeg https://i.imgur.com/gikmvgG.jpeg
DecoPerson 5y ago
Agreed. In Australia, we call this tilt-panel construction, and it can look great. This strip-shop complex in a neighbouring town was built using tilt-panel: https://thatsne.at/file/memmgd.jpeg https://thatsne.at/file/memmgd.jpeg Just like with movies, what you need to achieve a good-looking, functional building is a competent vision holder with taste. Too many buildings have winding passages because no one with any influence thought sufficiently deeply about the day-to-day usage of the building, how it will connect with neighboring areas, how the interior will be divided later by fitouts, etc etc.
snemvalts 5y ago
I'm writing this inside one. The main problem with khrushchyovkas is that sound isolation is horrid. You can hear steps from 1 (maybe 2) apartments over.
- layoutIfNeeded 5y ago
  That's just a matter of installing a better floor with sound-insulating materials.
  - baybal2 5y ago
    Which needs more space.

OminousWeapons 5y ago

The worldwide disdain arises from what you said, the additional association with communism / cheapness, and the fact that they are mass produced, generic, and boring, and no one wants to spend a lot of money to get generic and boring.

nine_k 5y ago
If McMansions aand cookie-cutter suburban communities are any indication, some still want to spend a lot of money on generic and boring. The reasons must be different.
- cmrdporcupine 5y ago
  It seems to me... people will spend a lot of money to get a generic, boring, mass produced version of what their parents generation thought was luxurious or classy. McMansions + perfect lawn in a suburb full of curves and crescents; and various kinds of "luxury" cars, big TVs, etc. All things just out of reach of many of our middle class parents or grandparents. So now you've made it when you have it... until you look close and see there's no actual class differentiator in it, no taste to it, no art to it, or any particular advantage to it... Just my, like, opinion, man...
  - goblinux 5y ago
    Totally opinion and preference. I’m a millennial and dying to get out of the city into a master planned community with beautiful lawns and big homes and properties
- OminousWeapons 5y ago
  McMansions are ugly but they're not boring or generic. Unless you're in a housing development, most are fairly unique. Units in housing developments do suffer from the same stigma though, and a lot of people won't buy them for that very reason, even though they are generally cheaper than units located outside of those developments. The problem is really the combination of all 3 factors. McMansions definitely make people think the inhabitants have no taste, but they don't make people think the inhabitants are poor. Buildings that look like public housing make people think the inhabitants are poor, which is worse for a lot of people.
  - aYsY4dDQ2NrcNzA 5y ago
    Reference materials: https://mcmansionhell.com/ https://mcmansionhell.com/
    - nine_k 5y ago
      That's hilarious! Thanks.

Animats 5y ago

It's hard to rent out all those street level shops. The tenants of a 4-6 story structure can't support those shops. There are not enough residents per shop for that. Such places are not usually convenient to drive to. The SF peninsula is getting way too many of those things. Many shops are vacant.

marcinzm 5y ago
>The tenants of a 4-6 story structure can't support those shops. In the polish version of these, the stores are in one building of the cluster of 4+ buildings, generally on the main street of the area. The US has a retail store for every 500 people or so which is about how many fit into a few of these buildings.. >Such places are not usually convenient to drive to. You don't drive to them, you take whatever local public transportation there is or walk. It's dense enough that you can visit all the important stores without driving or leaving your local area. >Many shops are vacant. That has more to do with the increasing rents and commercial rates being locked in for 5+ years. More economical to keep the place vacant for the landlord.
- Ericson2314 5y ago
  Agree except for the US does have way to much total retail, out of line with other countries. But that's a minor point.
  - marcinzm 5y ago
    Do you have data for that? Having visited a number of countries in Europe, Japan and the US I've found roughly the same number of retail stores (at least in terms of area). The US tends to have fewer but larger stores in my experience. For example, Google indicates that Germany alone has almost as many grocery stores as the US despite being a fraction of the population.
    - Ericson2314 5y ago
      To be clear, I was referring to retail floor area per capita. A quick google gave me https://www.statista.com/statistics/1058852/retail-space-per-capita-selected-countries-worldwide/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1058852/retail-space-per... I wouldn't be surprised, based on my own anecdotal understanding, if the average distance to nearest grocery store is less in Germany.

orthoxerox 5y ago

Seam insulation is an issue, modern apartment blocks in Russia use monolithic concrete instead.

foobar33333 5y ago

Concrete exteriors can look nice. I'm not sure if its just because its newer but I think this building (green one) pulls off raw concrete nicely https://i.imgur.com/gikmvgG.jpeg https://i.imgur.com/gikmvgG.jpeg

DecoPerson 5y ago

Agreed. In Australia, we call this tilt-panel construction, and it can look great. This strip-shop complex in a neighbouring town was built using tilt-panel: https://thatsne.at/file/memmgd.jpeg https://thatsne.at/file/memmgd.jpeg Just like with movies, what you need to achieve a good-looking, functional building is a competent vision holder with taste. Too many buildings have winding passages because no one with any influence thought sufficiently deeply about the day-to-day usage of the building, how it will connect with neighboring areas, how the interior will be divided later by fitouts, etc etc.

snemvalts 5y ago

I'm writing this inside one. The main problem with khrushchyovkas is that sound isolation is horrid. You can hear steps from 1 (maybe 2) apartments over.

layoutIfNeeded 5y ago
That's just a matter of installing a better floor with sound-insulating materials.
- baybal2 5y ago
  Which needs more space.