5 ms·

Why do you think HN doesn't value people like you? This whole thread is about learning things, and it seems like you do that quite a bit.

kragen 5y ago
Yesterday I wrote a simplified outline of the orthodox economic account of the factors of production, how they relate to the historical process of industrialization, and how these relate to market incentives and cross-border capital flows, in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27639177 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27639177. The post is downvoted to -4 and has no responses. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27502867 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27502867, where I explained some basic errors in a comment written to rebut one of my own, is downvoted to 0 and has no responses. In https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27448878 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27448878, I described the incentive structure of cryptocurrency mining and how it relates to recent developments in the price structure of the energy market. My comments in the thread all have positive vote scores but the responses from others are mostly things like "This is incoherent," and "I've heard this argument 1000 times. It is bogus," apparently because their author is unaware of the most basic relevant facts and unwilling or unable to absorb new information. When I shared my experience of why people use Bitcoin in Argentina in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27448744 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27448744 I got accused of tax evasion—by someone who openly admits he himself has arranged to avoid paying those same taxes. (Which, as it happens, I am paying, except for those I'm legally forbidden to pay—a problem I hope I can solve this year.) My comment at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27397765 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27397765 got flagged and downvoted to -4 and got me called "gross" and "racist" for, apparently, not hating the Chinese Communist Party. I didn't say anything negative about any ethnic or racial group in the entire thread, but evidently, people like tptacek who really, really hate the CPC a lot can't distinguish between anti-Chinese bigotry and unremarkable facts about Chinese popular opinion. And that's just in the last month. — ⁂ — An even bigger clue than my own experience, though, is to look at the words people on HN use in a derogatory sense: "Weird": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27646082 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27646082 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27646489 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27646489 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27646624 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27646624 "Strange": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27646481 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27646481 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27646609 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27646609 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27646758 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27646758 But "weird" and "strange" are just synonyms for "novel" or "unfamiliar". Learning is, profoundly, seeking out the things that seem weird and strange to you in order to take them into yourself and become weird and strange. If you detest whatever is weird, strange, and odd, you will sedulously avoid any opportunity to learn, and you will detest anyone who has learned things you have not—most vividly illustrated by the gross racist tptacek incident I linked earlier. And this mindlessly conformist attitude of hatred for the unfamiliar, far from being roundly rejected as it should be on a "hacker" site, is very commonplace here—all six of the noveltyphobic comments I linked above were posted in the last three hours, and those were just the ones that were easiest for me to find. Although many of these comments attracted pushback, in no case was it for the anti-intellectual attitude implicit in this wording; it passed without comment, just as it would in the larger anti-intellectual society. — ⁂ — Basically, to me, HN is the intellectual equivalent of the slums where I used to volunteer. Eight times out of ten, people silently approve of informed, thoughtful discussion, but don't participate. One time out of ten, they do participate, and it's great. The other one time out of ten, I get pistol-whipped and left bleeding on the sidewalk—in this case, thankfully, only metaphorically. It's not an environment that welcomes people like me, who do learn things quite a bit. It's an environment where the nail that sticks up gets hammered down, where the rule of the day is baseless calumny and casual accusations of criminality and dishonesty (though blessedly "this is disingenuous" seems to have become less common). It's contemptible. I'm certainly capable of spinning out baseless calumny and casual accusations of dishonesty, but I think of that as the worst aspect of my character, not the best. And it does not create a favorable environment for people to learn things or to share what they've learned—or, especially, what they are in the process of learning.
- squintychino 5y ago
  I think you may be expecting a little too much from people. While this site and its comment section is a little more mature than say, reddit (full of memes and jokes for the most part), it's also not at a level of something like a professional conference full of PhD's where your comments will be received at the same level as they are given. From your comments you seem like a very learned individual, possibly with much education, who comments about many different subjects and has much knowledge accumulated in each. Some people may find this off-putting, perhaps even being a bit jealous, because of the breadth of your interests and knowledge. You have a very extensive vocabulary and your writing style is very organized. You use section dividers: — ⁂ — which, while appreciated to keep things easy to read, might come off as pretentious and trying to show off. Some comments may come off as racist or biased, while all you're trying to do is engage in discussion and present a different viewpoint. There is so much to learn in the world, that there is no need to dumb things down for others, no need to fall in line with what the thought-du-jour is on a subject, and no need to be ashamed for wanting to better ourselves in both knowledge and understanding. I feel this way, and I hope you do too. I personally believe that another community is needed to get to the level of discussion you're after. I would go to that site. But I hope you don't become discouraged and stop posting here. Because even if people don't engage with your comments, or perhaps down-vote you because they feel threatened or put off by what I mentioned above, there are those (like myself) that read things and learn from them. We may not comment much, but we're out there.
  - kragen 5y ago
    > Some comments may come off as racist or biased, while all you're trying to do is engage in discussion and present a different viewpoint. At the point where it "may come off as racist or biased" for me to say that many Chinese people who grew up in China think the Chinese government is good and will be offended by attempts to demonize it, we've entered into some kind of toxic mental pathology that goes far beyond questions of whether I'm pretentious (I guess I am) or off-putting (undoubtedly at times, perhaps always), or whether HN is "something like a professional conference." God, let's hope that never happens! HN can avoid being degraded into a professional conference without becoming the Salem witch trials. Those aren't the only two alternatives!

kragen 5y ago

Yesterday I wrote a simplified outline of the orthodox economic account of the factors of production, how they relate to the historical process of industrialization, and how these relate to market incentives and cross-border capital flows, in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27639177 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27639177. The post is downvoted to -4 and has no responses. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27502867 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27502867, where I explained some basic errors in a comment written to rebut one of my own, is downvoted to 0 and has no responses. In https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27448878 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27448878, I described the incentive structure of cryptocurrency mining and how it relates to recent developments in the price structure of the energy market. My comments in the thread all have positive vote scores but the responses from others are mostly things like "This is incoherent," and "I've heard this argument 1000 times. It is bogus," apparently because their author is unaware of the most basic relevant facts and unwilling or unable to absorb new information. When I shared my experience of why people use Bitcoin in Argentina in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27448744 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27448744 I got accused of tax evasion—by someone who openly admits he himself has arranged to avoid paying those same taxes. (Which, as it happens, I am paying, except for those I'm legally forbidden to pay—a problem I hope I can solve this year.) My comment at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27397765 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27397765 got flagged and downvoted to -4 and got me called "gross" and "racist" for, apparently, not hating the Chinese Communist Party. I didn't say anything negative about any ethnic or racial group in the entire thread, but evidently, people like tptacek who really, really hate the CPC a lot can't distinguish between anti-Chinese bigotry and unremarkable facts about Chinese popular opinion. And that's just in the last month. — ⁂ — An even bigger clue than my own experience, though, is to look at the words people on HN use in a derogatory sense: "Weird": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27646082 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27646082 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27646489 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27646489 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27646624 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27646624 "Strange": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27646481 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27646481 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27646609 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27646609 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27646758 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27646758 But "weird" and "strange" are just synonyms for "novel" or "unfamiliar". Learning is, profoundly, seeking out the things that seem weird and strange to you in order to take them into yourself and become weird and strange. If you detest whatever is weird, strange, and odd, you will sedulously avoid any opportunity to learn, and you will detest anyone who has learned things you have not—most vividly illustrated by the gross racist tptacek incident I linked earlier. And this mindlessly conformist attitude of hatred for the unfamiliar, far from being roundly rejected as it should be on a "hacker" site, is very commonplace here—all six of the noveltyphobic comments I linked above were posted in the last three hours, and those were just the ones that were easiest for me to find. Although many of these comments attracted pushback, in no case was it for the anti-intellectual attitude implicit in this wording; it passed without comment, just as it would in the larger anti-intellectual society. — ⁂ — Basically, to me, HN is the intellectual equivalent of the slums where I used to volunteer. Eight times out of ten, people silently approve of informed, thoughtful discussion, but don't participate. One time out of ten, they do participate, and it's great. The other one time out of ten, I get pistol-whipped and left bleeding on the sidewalk—in this case, thankfully, only metaphorically. It's not an environment that welcomes people like me, who do learn things quite a bit. It's an environment where the nail that sticks up gets hammered down, where the rule of the day is baseless calumny and casual accusations of criminality and dishonesty (though blessedly "this is disingenuous" seems to have become less common). It's contemptible. I'm certainly capable of spinning out baseless calumny and casual accusations of dishonesty, but I think of that as the worst aspect of my character, not the best. And it does not create a favorable environment for people to learn things or to share what they've learned—or, especially, what they are in the process of learning.

squintychino 5y ago
I think you may be expecting a little too much from people. While this site and its comment section is a little more mature than say, reddit (full of memes and jokes for the most part), it's also not at a level of something like a professional conference full of PhD's where your comments will be received at the same level as they are given. From your comments you seem like a very learned individual, possibly with much education, who comments about many different subjects and has much knowledge accumulated in each. Some people may find this off-putting, perhaps even being a bit jealous, because of the breadth of your interests and knowledge. You have a very extensive vocabulary and your writing style is very organized. You use section dividers: — ⁂ — which, while appreciated to keep things easy to read, might come off as pretentious and trying to show off. Some comments may come off as racist or biased, while all you're trying to do is engage in discussion and present a different viewpoint. There is so much to learn in the world, that there is no need to dumb things down for others, no need to fall in line with what the thought-du-jour is on a subject, and no need to be ashamed for wanting to better ourselves in both knowledge and understanding. I feel this way, and I hope you do too. I personally believe that another community is needed to get to the level of discussion you're after. I would go to that site. But I hope you don't become discouraged and stop posting here. Because even if people don't engage with your comments, or perhaps down-vote you because they feel threatened or put off by what I mentioned above, there are those (like myself) that read things and learn from them. We may not comment much, but we're out there.
- kragen 5y ago
  > Some comments may come off as racist or biased, while all you're trying to do is engage in discussion and present a different viewpoint. At the point where it "may come off as racist or biased" for me to say that many Chinese people who grew up in China think the Chinese government is good and will be offended by attempts to demonize it, we've entered into some kind of toxic mental pathology that goes far beyond questions of whether I'm pretentious (I guess I am) or off-putting (undoubtedly at times, perhaps always), or whether HN is "something like a professional conference." God, let's hope that never happens! HN can avoid being degraded into a professional conference without becoming the Salem witch trials. Those aren't the only two alternatives!