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After listening to The Lazarus heist[1] I find it hard to have sympathy for Izbicki's position. Children are recruited into computer science from a young age in

After listening to The Lazarus heist[1] I find it hard to have sympathy for Izbicki's position. Children are recruited into computer science from a young age in NK with the express purpose of furthering the state's objectives. Mainly by funding the regime and circumventing sanctions by engaging in hacking. There's a good chance he's helping train the next generation. 1: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-57520169 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-57520169

mhoad 5y ago
That is actually very clearly what is happening here. This combined with the "unfiltered internet access" claim all clearly points in an obvious direction. Repressive and notoriously paranoid regimes are not in the business of doing something like that out of the goodness of their hearts. They do however rapidly need to build out and further expand their cyber power because it's one of the few winning strategies they have at the moment and has allowed them to become one of the big players in that space. Those networks may be "unfiltered" but they are monitored. This entire thing is a giant loyalty test to the party. You need a way to filter out the "true believers" from everyone who could pose a threat to the future stability of the regime. But nobody who works in or around this space would see anything other than a giant counterintelligence operation happening under the guise of "unfiltered" internet access.
JPKab 5y ago
Engaging in teaching these kinds of skills in a nation like North Korea is inherently aiding the state and continuing the oppression of its people. You are completely correct about your suspicion about primarily furthering the objectives of the state. I am always saddened by the naive do-gooders who don't get this, and devote energy to making the world a worse place when they implicitly think they are doing the opposite.
- dvdkon 5y ago
  So would you say that the best strategy to making North Korea a better place would be to make the lives of North Koreans as miserable as possible, destabilising the country? It might work, but it seems antithetical to the original goal of helping people.
  - lovelyviking 5y ago
    > the best strategy to making North Korea a better place would be to make the lives of North Koreans as miserable as possible, destabilising the country? I see here hidden false assumption that helping North Korea is making lives of North Koreans less miserable. The main cause of all problems for North Koreans is this totalitarian regime and those who support it. They suffer from that! Not from your actions. So destabilising the country is attacking the core of their problem and thus helping North Korea people. Supporting the regime is prolonging their sufferings. This regime should fall inevitably and there is no other way to help people of North Korea people so the only question is when and how.
    - the_af 5y ago
      > The main cause of all problems for North Koreans is this totalitarian regime and those who support it. They suffer from that! Not from your actions. So destabilising the country is attacking the core of their problem and thus helping North Korea people. Please! No more of this line of reasoning, it has caused suffering and damage time and time again. Don't recommend that others endure that which you and your loved ones are not willing to endure. Before claiming a country must be blockaded, starved and bombed into submission "for its own good", consider whether you would welcome that blockade, destabilization and bombs if they were falling on your roof and possibly killing your loved ones.
      - lovelyviking 5y ago
        >consider whether you would welcome that blockade, destabilization and bombs if they were falling on your roof and possibly killing your loved ones. First of all I didn't speak about bombs falling on the heads of civilians because only heartless crazy individual would recommend that. >Before claiming a country must be blockaded, starved and bombed into submission "for its own good" Second I didn't speak about starving either. But certain blockade and destabilization of oppressive regime is more then welcome because such regime should fall. I never understood why everybody would be in favor of stopping some killer but if that killer or group of killers put some funny clothes and call themselves 'country' everybody kind of ok with them having millions of hostages. >Don't recommend that others endure that which you and your loved ones are not willing to endure. I was in Crimea already occupied by Russia during electricity blockade. Was I happy? I have suffered from it but I was welcoming it with both hands. Unfortunately it was not enough to return freedom and rights to Crimea and people living there so I would welcome something that would. >Please! No more of this line of reasoning, it has caused suffering and damage time and time again. Since I lived in the ussr and saw this evil empire with my own eyes you will see nothing but exactly this line of reasoning from me. I cannot understand why ussr was allowed to exist for so long. Why people of the free world were closing their eyes to the crimes of this regime. Why it was not suffocated sooner. I cannot understand why today people of the free world are ok with turtures in the middle of the Europe. I am talking about Belarus dictator where real people have spoken loudly what the want. Why real help didn't come to them? Why military help didn't come to Ukraine when Russia have occupied Crimea and later on two regions. Why it didn't come to democratic Georgia when Russia attacked them? I cannot understand why Ukraine's young democracy is not in NATO or under full protection of NATO. I do not understand why free world doesn't stop Russia attacking their neigbours and taking away rights and freedoms of people. I cannot understand why regimes like in Russia, North Korea, Iran and so on are allowed to exist at all and why they are allowed to torture people under their control and perhaps I never will. So Please! Don't even ask.
dblock 5y ago
This is extremely shortsighted. Educated people are a lot harder to exploit. One of these students might one day lead the kind of change we’ve seen in numerous examples through history.
- sbuttgereit 5y ago
  > Educated people are a lot harder to exploit. If you're trying to talk someone into something, sure. But if all you really mean to do is get someone's compliance where you want it and silence otherwise, I would think a realistic threat of thuggery trumps education an overwhelming majority of the time. I also wouldn't be surprised if education was limited to those that were considered "reliable", with vested interests in perpetuating the system.
  - SiempreViernes 5y ago
    Revolution by vested interests against other bits of the vested interests is basically the short story of how countries in latin america got independence from spain.
- JPKab 5y ago
  This comment clearly shows an absolute blatant ignorance of anything to do with North Korea. I would recommend that you educate yourself on what North Korea actually is and how deeply oppressive it is. Anyone in North Korea who has access to a computer is in the highest caste in their system. You are born into this caste, and it's based on the interviews that were done of North Korean people in the 1950s. Families were classified into hostile, wavering, or supporters of the communist revolution. These classifications were made primarily on the basis of occupation and other factors that were indicators of whether they were in a higher economic class or were more of a proletariat. In short the only people who are going to learn anything about software North Korea are part of the class that is oppressing most of the nation. Another thing that you certainly aren't aware of is the fact that people in the lowest caste are literally prevented from traveling into any of the North Korean cities and are relegated to a portion in the Northeast and aren't even allowed to be anywhere near a border where they could potentially escape into China or SK. Stating that something is shortsighted should be based on some knowledge of the nation you are talking about.
cs02rm0 5y ago
I'm conflicted on this type of problem. The bit I particularly struggle with is the alternative - if we don't go there and attempt to break down the barriers with ordinary people, what hope is there for the country? Just sit tight and wait until the next dictator dies and hope they're of a more lenient disposition? They're not going to invite us in for lectures on political education. It's not the same, I'm not suggesting it is, but I do see parallels with Saudi Arabia (I bring it up because I've lived there). And while the guy at the top is as unsavoury as it gets I do think the presence of Westerners has been a positive influence and the few steps we've seen to let women drive, cinemas open, etc. I'd put down in small part to that presence influencing the general population. And in another perhaps not so small part down to the internet. And that's a country we sell proper weapons to, not just machine learning classes. I get that there's a fairly direct line that can be drawn to negative consequences in engaging with such states, but these things are inherently messy and there's a long game to play here.
- briandear 5y ago
  These aren’t ordinary people. These are carefully vetted people. Teaching these students advanced computing is quite literally bolstering the regime.
  - lovelyviking 5y ago
    I do not understand downvoting to your post.
  - Zababa 5y ago
    It's not like a change of regime will be made by the lower classes anyways.
- lovelyviking 5y ago
  >if we don't go there and attempt to break down the barriers with ordinary people, what hope is there for the country? Giving teaching to oppressing elite is not breaking barriers with ordinary people. It's making those barriers between elite and ordinary people even stronger. Your only hope is to 'smuggle' good ideas and books about freedom values, democracy and even more valuable the truth about what is going on.
gumby 5y ago
This kind of thing was an issue in the USSR as well (at least in athletics, chess and the like). I do believe that the countries' policies of some cultural and scientific interchange did reduce tensions and risks.

mhoad 5y ago

That is actually very clearly what is happening here. This combined with the "unfiltered internet access" claim all clearly points in an obvious direction. Repressive and notoriously paranoid regimes are not in the business of doing something like that out of the goodness of their hearts. They do however rapidly need to build out and further expand their cyber power because it's one of the few winning strategies they have at the moment and has allowed them to become one of the big players in that space. Those networks may be "unfiltered" but they are monitored. This entire thing is a giant loyalty test to the party. You need a way to filter out the "true believers" from everyone who could pose a threat to the future stability of the regime. But nobody who works in or around this space would see anything other than a giant counterintelligence operation happening under the guise of "unfiltered" internet access.

JPKab 5y ago

Engaging in teaching these kinds of skills in a nation like North Korea is inherently aiding the state and continuing the oppression of its people. You are completely correct about your suspicion about primarily furthering the objectives of the state. I am always saddened by the naive do-gooders who don't get this, and devote energy to making the world a worse place when they implicitly think they are doing the opposite.

dvdkon 5y ago
So would you say that the best strategy to making North Korea a better place would be to make the lives of North Koreans as miserable as possible, destabilising the country? It might work, but it seems antithetical to the original goal of helping people.
- lovelyviking 5y ago
  > the best strategy to making North Korea a better place would be to make the lives of North Koreans as miserable as possible, destabilising the country? I see here hidden false assumption that helping North Korea is making lives of North Koreans less miserable. The main cause of all problems for North Koreans is this totalitarian regime and those who support it. They suffer from that! Not from your actions. So destabilising the country is attacking the core of their problem and thus helping North Korea people. Supporting the regime is prolonging their sufferings. This regime should fall inevitably and there is no other way to help people of North Korea people so the only question is when and how.
  - the_af 5y ago
    > The main cause of all problems for North Koreans is this totalitarian regime and those who support it. They suffer from that! Not from your actions. So destabilising the country is attacking the core of their problem and thus helping North Korea people. Please! No more of this line of reasoning, it has caused suffering and damage time and time again. Don't recommend that others endure that which you and your loved ones are not willing to endure. Before claiming a country must be blockaded, starved and bombed into submission "for its own good", consider whether you would welcome that blockade, destabilization and bombs if they were falling on your roof and possibly killing your loved ones.
    - lovelyviking 5y ago
      >consider whether you would welcome that blockade, destabilization and bombs if they were falling on your roof and possibly killing your loved ones. First of all I didn't speak about bombs falling on the heads of civilians because only heartless crazy individual would recommend that. >Before claiming a country must be blockaded, starved and bombed into submission "for its own good" Second I didn't speak about starving either. But certain blockade and destabilization of oppressive regime is more then welcome because such regime should fall. I never understood why everybody would be in favor of stopping some killer but if that killer or group of killers put some funny clothes and call themselves 'country' everybody kind of ok with them having millions of hostages. >Don't recommend that others endure that which you and your loved ones are not willing to endure. I was in Crimea already occupied by Russia during electricity blockade. Was I happy? I have suffered from it but I was welcoming it with both hands. Unfortunately it was not enough to return freedom and rights to Crimea and people living there so I would welcome something that would. >Please! No more of this line of reasoning, it has caused suffering and damage time and time again. Since I lived in the ussr and saw this evil empire with my own eyes you will see nothing but exactly this line of reasoning from me. I cannot understand why ussr was allowed to exist for so long. Why people of the free world were closing their eyes to the crimes of this regime. Why it was not suffocated sooner. I cannot understand why today people of the free world are ok with turtures in the middle of the Europe. I am talking about Belarus dictator where real people have spoken loudly what the want. Why real help didn't come to them? Why military help didn't come to Ukraine when Russia have occupied Crimea and later on two regions. Why it didn't come to democratic Georgia when Russia attacked them? I cannot understand why Ukraine's young democracy is not in NATO or under full protection of NATO. I do not understand why free world doesn't stop Russia attacking their neigbours and taking away rights and freedoms of people. I cannot understand why regimes like in Russia, North Korea, Iran and so on are allowed to exist at all and why they are allowed to torture people under their control and perhaps I never will. So Please! Don't even ask.

dblock 5y ago

This is extremely shortsighted. Educated people are a lot harder to exploit. One of these students might one day lead the kind of change we’ve seen in numerous examples through history.

sbuttgereit 5y ago
> Educated people are a lot harder to exploit. If you're trying to talk someone into something, sure. But if all you really mean to do is get someone's compliance where you want it and silence otherwise, I would think a realistic threat of thuggery trumps education an overwhelming majority of the time. I also wouldn't be surprised if education was limited to those that were considered "reliable", with vested interests in perpetuating the system.
- SiempreViernes 5y ago
  Revolution by vested interests against other bits of the vested interests is basically the short story of how countries in latin america got independence from spain.
JPKab 5y ago
This comment clearly shows an absolute blatant ignorance of anything to do with North Korea. I would recommend that you educate yourself on what North Korea actually is and how deeply oppressive it is. Anyone in North Korea who has access to a computer is in the highest caste in their system. You are born into this caste, and it's based on the interviews that were done of North Korean people in the 1950s. Families were classified into hostile, wavering, or supporters of the communist revolution. These classifications were made primarily on the basis of occupation and other factors that were indicators of whether they were in a higher economic class or were more of a proletariat. In short the only people who are going to learn anything about software North Korea are part of the class that is oppressing most of the nation. Another thing that you certainly aren't aware of is the fact that people in the lowest caste are literally prevented from traveling into any of the North Korean cities and are relegated to a portion in the Northeast and aren't even allowed to be anywhere near a border where they could potentially escape into China or SK. Stating that something is shortsighted should be based on some knowledge of the nation you are talking about.

cs02rm0 5y ago

I'm conflicted on this type of problem. The bit I particularly struggle with is the alternative - if we don't go there and attempt to break down the barriers with ordinary people, what hope is there for the country? Just sit tight and wait until the next dictator dies and hope they're of a more lenient disposition? They're not going to invite us in for lectures on political education. It's not the same, I'm not suggesting it is, but I do see parallels with Saudi Arabia (I bring it up because I've lived there). And while the guy at the top is as unsavoury as it gets I do think the presence of Westerners has been a positive influence and the few steps we've seen to let women drive, cinemas open, etc. I'd put down in small part to that presence influencing the general population. And in another perhaps not so small part down to the internet. And that's a country we sell proper weapons to, not just machine learning classes. I get that there's a fairly direct line that can be drawn to negative consequences in engaging with such states, but these things are inherently messy and there's a long game to play here.

briandear 5y ago
These aren’t ordinary people. These are carefully vetted people. Teaching these students advanced computing is quite literally bolstering the regime.
- lovelyviking 5y ago
  I do not understand downvoting to your post.
- Zababa 5y ago
  It's not like a change of regime will be made by the lower classes anyways.
lovelyviking 5y ago
>if we don't go there and attempt to break down the barriers with ordinary people, what hope is there for the country? Giving teaching to oppressing elite is not breaking barriers with ordinary people. It's making those barriers between elite and ordinary people even stronger. Your only hope is to 'smuggle' good ideas and books about freedom values, democracy and even more valuable the truth about what is going on.

gumby 5y ago

This kind of thing was an issue in the USSR as well (at least in athletics, chess and the like). I do believe that the countries' policies of some cultural and scientific interchange did reduce tensions and risks.