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I find it interesting that, according to the article and in 2016 at least, North Korean graduate students had unfiltered internet access! Probably monitored, an

by the_af 5y ago

I find it interesting that, according to the article and in 2016 at least, North Korean graduate students had unfiltered internet access! Probably monitored, and it mentions they were forbidden from creating accounts in social media platforms, but still... unfiltered access! This tells me there's a lot we don't know about NK. Lots of people seem to assume maximum oppression/censorship by default, when the reality might be more nuanced.

gambiting 5y ago
I mean....obviously it's not quite the same, but there are plenty of people who think that in the former Soviet Union and its republics people had no idea about what the West was up to. That again couldn't be further from the truth - there was loads of smuggled in media, magazines, books, movies with home made dubs, people listened to forbidden radio stations.....yeah all of it was highly illegal and you could get in serious trouble for it, but people absolutely still did it. I have no doubt that similar things are happening in North Korea right now.
- _joel 5y ago
  One of my favourites I heard about from that era - https://www.npr.org/2016/01/09/462289635/bones-and-grooves-weird-secret-history-of-soviet-x-ray-music https://www.npr.org/2016/01/09/462289635/bones-and-grooves-w...
- shard 5y ago
  Did the people in the Soviet Union think that the smuggled media was propaganda? I remember the story about Boris Yelchin visiting a US supermarket, being amazed at the all the products available, and thinking that it was a fake store set up to impress him at first.
  - FpUser 5y ago
    >"Did the people in the Soviet Union think that the smuggled media was propaganda" I was born in the USSR. No we did not think that the media was propaganda. At least most of the people I knew. And USSR's own propaganda was so cheesy that it was not believable to normal people. My parents were scientists and I also studied in university and had become scientist myself. So my experience might be somewhat not all encompassing because of the environment. What I do find now is that the amount of corporate, media and government propaganda in the west is insane and is as cheesy as the one of former USSR. Also the amount of venom and paranoia in this thread is depressing.
    - ehsanu1 5y ago
      I'm sorry, I don't perceive the venom/paranoia that you clearly see. Would you be willing to call out the specific passages that strike you that way and why?
    - rnd0 5y ago
      quote:"What I do find now is that the amount of corporate, media and government propaganda in the west is insane and is as cheesy as the one of former USSR." Indeed. And it's gone on long enough (on TV) that now it's hit the re-runs. "24" in particular did not age well ... As an American it's very depressing.
dblock 5y ago
I grew up in the USSR. There were multiple layers of the system. I was somewhere in the middle with my father being a well known poetry translator and grandfather writing propaganda. We listened to the BBC and Voice of America without reprimand, because of our status. Neighbors would face serious consequences for this. At 12 I was sent to the US to understand how capitalism is harmful. I think North Korea is making the same bet of creating a system in which some know all the truth and still work for the regime.
- xxpor 5y ago
  >At 12 I was sent to the US to understand how capitalism is harmful. Did they think that would work?
  - fooker 5y ago
    Maybe. Should be enough to look at just healthcare, at least nowadays.
    - reader_mode 5y ago
      Compared to USSR which had people resorting to cannibalism due to starvation ?
      - hulitu 5y ago
        Or to US where people live and die on the street ?
    - xxpor 5y ago
      I doubt a 12 year old would know/care about that though. They would notice that almost everyone had a car, there were no shortages in grocery stores, houses were much bigger, etc.
      - hulitu 5y ago
        You start also to notice that there are no differences in the propaganda narative between your home country and the country you visit. And that some people live on the streets. In the end you need to choose your masters.
emodendroket 5y ago
Alek Sigley eventually got in trouble for it and had to leave, but before that he wrote a lot of articles on daily life for (admittedly privileged, given that he was in Pyongyang and at a university) people in North Korea.
gwern 5y ago
People have monitored activity from North Korean IP ranges. There's more than you think! Of course, this sort of unfiltered access is still extremely restricted: these are the children of the elite, the literally hereditary elite caste (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songbun https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songbun), who are investments for the state for being sent abroad for the hacking campaigns (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-02-07/inside-kim-jong-un-s-hacker-army https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-02-07/inside-ki...) or for the domestic surveillance apparatus. (Someone is developing all of the clever ways they have to restrict and monitor smartphones: https://www.gwern.net/docs/technology/2017-kretchun.pdf https://www.gwern.net/docs/technology/2017-kretchun.pdf And it'll keep going. 'Reducing traffic jams' my arse. But at least we have more 'transparency' now...) They are granted access for that purpose, and they know their families' welfare and positions are hostage, and are in no hurry to jeopardize their charmed lives in Pyongyang. You don't live in Pyongyang, be taught English, go through university there through to a master's, without absolutely impeccable credentials and a lot to lose. It is unsurprising that they rarely 'abuse' that privilege. (Think of the closed cities in the USSR, or shopping at the foreign-currency stores, or travel abroad.)
- trainsplanes 5y ago
  I wonder how true the western claim is that North Koreans always feel like they’re being held hostage and fearing for their lives, so they make sure to stay in line. Or whether it’s closer to its neighbor, China, where most people simply do not care about those “forbidden” things and thus don’t seek them out. Think of people living in rural Appalachia (a place I’m from). Most don’t think about how “good” life could be outside of that area where job opportunities are more plentiful and standard of living is higher. There’s a very strong party allegiance that’s almost religious. Caring about other countries extends to knowing just the names of some major economies and not much more. Unlike NK, they’re completely free people, but they’re happy enough being there with many never going more than a few miles from their home town or researching what the outside world is like. Most people there just don’t care. And I’m not implying it’s bad, just not an uncommon mindset.
  - elliekelly 5y ago

by the_af 5y ago

gambiting 5y ago

I mean....obviously it's not quite the same, but there are plenty of people who think that in the former Soviet Union and its republics people had no idea about what the West was up to. That again couldn't be further from the truth - there was loads of smuggled in media, magazines, books, movies with home made dubs, people listened to forbidden radio stations.....yeah all of it was highly illegal and you could get in serious trouble for it, but people absolutely still did it. I have no doubt that similar things are happening in North Korea right now.

_joel 5y ago
One of my favourites I heard about from that era - https://www.npr.org/2016/01/09/462289635/bones-and-grooves-weird-secret-history-of-soviet-x-ray-music https://www.npr.org/2016/01/09/462289635/bones-and-grooves-w...
shard 5y ago
Did the people in the Soviet Union think that the smuggled media was propaganda? I remember the story about Boris Yelchin visiting a US supermarket, being amazed at the all the products available, and thinking that it was a fake store set up to impress him at first.
- FpUser 5y ago
  >"Did the people in the Soviet Union think that the smuggled media was propaganda" I was born in the USSR. No we did not think that the media was propaganda. At least most of the people I knew. And USSR's own propaganda was so cheesy that it was not believable to normal people. My parents were scientists and I also studied in university and had become scientist myself. So my experience might be somewhat not all encompassing because of the environment. What I do find now is that the amount of corporate, media and government propaganda in the west is insane and is as cheesy as the one of former USSR. Also the amount of venom and paranoia in this thread is depressing.
  - ehsanu1 5y ago
    I'm sorry, I don't perceive the venom/paranoia that you clearly see. Would you be willing to call out the specific passages that strike you that way and why?
  - rnd0 5y ago
    quote:"What I do find now is that the amount of corporate, media and government propaganda in the west is insane and is as cheesy as the one of former USSR." Indeed. And it's gone on long enough (on TV) that now it's hit the re-runs. "24" in particular did not age well ... As an American it's very depressing.

dblock 5y ago

I grew up in the USSR. There were multiple layers of the system. I was somewhere in the middle with my father being a well known poetry translator and grandfather writing propaganda. We listened to the BBC and Voice of America without reprimand, because of our status. Neighbors would face serious consequences for this. At 12 I was sent to the US to understand how capitalism is harmful. I think North Korea is making the same bet of creating a system in which some know all the truth and still work for the regime.

xxpor 5y ago
>At 12 I was sent to the US to understand how capitalism is harmful. Did they think that would work?
- fooker 5y ago
  Maybe. Should be enough to look at just healthcare, at least nowadays.
  - reader_mode 5y ago
    Compared to USSR which had people resorting to cannibalism due to starvation ?
    - hulitu 5y ago
      Or to US where people live and die on the street ?
  - xxpor 5y ago
    I doubt a 12 year old would know/care about that though. They would notice that almost everyone had a car, there were no shortages in grocery stores, houses were much bigger, etc.
    - hulitu 5y ago
      You start also to notice that there are no differences in the propaganda narative between your home country and the country you visit. And that some people live on the streets. In the end you need to choose your masters.

emodendroket 5y ago

Alek Sigley eventually got in trouble for it and had to leave, but before that he wrote a lot of articles on daily life for (admittedly privileged, given that he was in Pyongyang and at a university) people in North Korea.

gwern 5y ago

People have monitored activity from North Korean IP ranges. There's more than you think! Of course, this sort of unfiltered access is still extremely restricted: these are the children of the elite, the literally hereditary elite caste (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songbun https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songbun), who are investments for the state for being sent abroad for the hacking campaigns (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-02-07/inside-kim-jong-un-s-hacker-army https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-02-07/inside-ki...) or for the domestic surveillance apparatus. (Someone is developing all of the clever ways they have to restrict and monitor smartphones: https://www.gwern.net/docs/technology/2017-kretchun.pdf https://www.gwern.net/docs/technology/2017-kretchun.pdf And it'll keep going. 'Reducing traffic jams' my arse. But at least we have more 'transparency' now...) They are granted access for that purpose, and they know their families' welfare and positions are hostage, and are in no hurry to jeopardize their charmed lives in Pyongyang. You don't live in Pyongyang, be taught English, go through university there through to a master's, without absolutely impeccable credentials and a lot to lose. It is unsurprising that they rarely 'abuse' that privilege. (Think of the closed cities in the USSR, or shopping at the foreign-currency stores, or travel abroad.)

trainsplanes 5y ago
I wonder how true the western claim is that North Koreans always feel like they’re being held hostage and fearing for their lives, so they make sure to stay in line. Or whether it’s closer to its neighbor, China, where most people simply do not care about those “forbidden” things and thus don’t seek them out. Think of people living in rural Appalachia (a place I’m from). Most don’t think about how “good” life could be outside of that area where job opportunities are more plentiful and standard of living is higher. There’s a very strong party allegiance that’s almost religious. Caring about other countries extends to knowing just the names of some major economies and not much more. Unlike NK, they’re completely free people, but they’re happy enough being there with many never going more than a few miles from their home town or researching what the outside world is like. Most people there just don’t care. And I’m not implying it’s bad, just not an uncommon mindset.
- elliekelly 5y ago