5 ms·

Plenty of people know multiple statically typed and dynamic languages, and multiple functional, imperative, and other languages; and use dynamic languages for s

Plenty of people know multiple statically typed and dynamic languages, and multiple functional, imperative, and other languages; and use dynamic languages for some things but not other things. The set of people using dynamic languages isn't just "those that haven't had their eyes opened yet to what static languages can do". Different languages and paradigms make different things easier. I do believe that, for long lasting, larger projects, static typing tends to make the code easier to maintain as time goes on. But not every project is like that. In fact, not every project uses a single language. Some use statically typed languages for some parts, and dynamically typed for others (this is common in web dev).

seanwilson 5y ago
> The set of people using dynamic languages isn't just "those that haven't had their eyes opened yet to what static languages can do". This was more aimed at people who are new to the idea of parsing over validating. In a strong statically typed language, the type system would naturally guide you to use this approach so if this isn't natural to you then time in other languages would probably be worthwhile.
- RHSeeger 5y ago
  My misunderstanding then. Your comment came across (to me) as saying that people using dynamic language just don't know any better; that, if they would just learn a static language, they would suddenly understand the error of their ways. That's the thought that I was responding to.
wpietri 5y ago
For sure. I do most of my work in situations of high volatility of domain and requirements and relatively high risk. (E.g., startups, projects in new areas.) Static typing really appeals to me on a personal level. I enjoy the process of analysis it requires. I love the notion of eliminating whole classes of bugs. It feels way more tidy. I took Odersky's Scala class for fun and loved it. But in practice, they're just a bad match for projects where the defining characteristic is unstable ground. They force artificial clarity when the reality is murky. And they impose costs that pay off in the long run, which only matters if the project has a long run. If I'm building something where we don't know where we're going, I'll reach for something like Python or Ruby to start. This has been brought home to me by doing interviews recently. I have a sample problem that we pair on for an hour or so; there are 4 user stories. It involves a back end and a web front end. People can use any tools they want. My goal isn't to get particular things done; it's to see them at their best. After doing a couple dozen, I'm seeing a pattern: developers using static tooling (e.g., Java, TypeScript) get circa half as much done as people using dynamic tooling (Python, plain JS). In the time when people in static contexts are still defining interfaces and types, people using dynamic tools are putting useful things on the page. Making a change in the static code often requires multiple tweaks in situations where it's one change in the dynamic code. It makes the extra costs of static tooling really obvious. That doesn't harm the static-language interviewees, I should underline. The goal is to see how they work. But it was interesting to see that it wasn't just me feeling the extra costs. And those costs are only worth paying when they create payoffs down the road.
- j1elo 5y ago
  Great comment. There are no silver bullets. I am Team static typing, but recognize how heavy of a burden would be to start a purely exploratory development in Rust or Java. It just "cuts your wings" in the name of correctness... well some times it is useful to have the ability to start with a technically incorrect implementation that anyways only fails in a corner case that is not your main point of research. On the other hand, as the initial code grows and grows, the cost of moving it all to a saner language grows too... discouraging a rewrite. So we end up with very complex production software that started as dynamic and is still dynamic.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - b3morales 5y ago
    Perhaps the Goldilocks mixture will be languages that allow type annotations but don't require it (e.g. Typescript, Elixir, Racket, and I think this is how Python's works).
    - wpietri 5y ago
      Yeah, I've been using Python's gradual typing for a while. It's not perfect, but I'm excited for the possibilities. But the real test is to see what it's like on a large, long-lived project, so I'm keeping any open mind. I figure if that doesn't work fully, it'll still be a nice step toward things that can be pulled out as isolated services.
- giantrobot 5y ago
  I have had the exact same experience. There's lots of utility in statically typed languages. They're great if your problem space is well defined. With respect to type checking, it's like a jig in wood or metal working. You trade flexibility for correctness. When the problem space is less well defined the type-related boiler plate adds a lot of friction. It's not impossible to overcome that friction but it slows down progress. When you're under a tight deadline development velocity is often more valuable than absolute correctness or even overall runtime efficiency. An delivered product that works is usually more valuable than an undelivered product that's more "correct" or efficient. A development project is just a cost (for various values of cost) until it ships.
rowanG077 5y ago
I'm one of those people. But the reasons I use dynamic languages is in spite of them being dynamic. I choose Python because it has insane library support, I don't like Python as a language though. I would instantly choose Haskell if it had even half the available libraries. But I can't justify having to write everything myself and take 10x as long.

seanwilson 5y ago

> The set of people using dynamic languages isn't just "those that haven't had their eyes opened yet to what static languages can do". This was more aimed at people who are new to the idea of parsing over validating. In a strong statically typed language, the type system would naturally guide you to use this approach so if this isn't natural to you then time in other languages would probably be worthwhile.

RHSeeger 5y ago
My misunderstanding then. Your comment came across (to me) as saying that people using dynamic language just don't know any better; that, if they would just learn a static language, they would suddenly understand the error of their ways. That's the thought that I was responding to.

wpietri 5y ago

For sure. I do most of my work in situations of high volatility of domain and requirements and relatively high risk. (E.g., startups, projects in new areas.) Static typing really appeals to me on a personal level. I enjoy the process of analysis it requires. I love the notion of eliminating whole classes of bugs. It feels way more tidy. I took Odersky's Scala class for fun and loved it. But in practice, they're just a bad match for projects where the defining characteristic is unstable ground. They force artificial clarity when the reality is murky. And they impose costs that pay off in the long run, which only matters if the project has a long run. If I'm building something where we don't know where we're going, I'll reach for something like Python or Ruby to start. This has been brought home to me by doing interviews recently. I have a sample problem that we pair on for an hour or so; there are 4 user stories. It involves a back end and a web front end. People can use any tools they want. My goal isn't to get particular things done; it's to see them at their best. After doing a couple dozen, I'm seeing a pattern: developers using static tooling (e.g., Java, TypeScript) get circa half as much done as people using dynamic tooling (Python, plain JS). In the time when people in static contexts are still defining interfaces and types, people using dynamic tools are putting useful things on the page. Making a change in the static code often requires multiple tweaks in situations where it's one change in the dynamic code. It makes the extra costs of static tooling really obvious. That doesn't harm the static-language interviewees, I should underline. The goal is to see how they work. But it was interesting to see that it wasn't just me feeling the extra costs. And those costs are only worth paying when they create payoffs down the road.

j1elo 5y ago
Great comment. There are no silver bullets. I am Team static typing, but recognize how heavy of a burden would be to start a purely exploratory development in Rust or Java. It just "cuts your wings" in the name of correctness... well some times it is useful to have the ability to start with a technically incorrect implementation that anyways only fails in a corner case that is not your main point of research. On the other hand, as the initial code grows and grows, the cost of moving it all to a saner language grows too... discouraging a rewrite. So we end up with very complex production software that started as dynamic and is still dynamic.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- b3morales 5y ago
  Perhaps the Goldilocks mixture will be languages that allow type annotations but don't require it (e.g. Typescript, Elixir, Racket, and I think this is how Python's works).
  - wpietri 5y ago
    Yeah, I've been using Python's gradual typing for a while. It's not perfect, but I'm excited for the possibilities. But the real test is to see what it's like on a large, long-lived project, so I'm keeping any open mind. I figure if that doesn't work fully, it'll still be a nice step toward things that can be pulled out as isolated services.
giantrobot 5y ago
I have had the exact same experience. There's lots of utility in statically typed languages. They're great if your problem space is well defined. With respect to type checking, it's like a jig in wood or metal working. You trade flexibility for correctness. When the problem space is less well defined the type-related boiler plate adds a lot of friction. It's not impossible to overcome that friction but it slows down progress. When you're under a tight deadline development velocity is often more valuable than absolute correctness or even overall runtime efficiency. An delivered product that works is usually more valuable than an undelivered product that's more "correct" or efficient. A development project is just a cost (for various values of cost) until it ships.

rowanG077 5y ago

I'm one of those people. But the reasons I use dynamic languages is in spite of them being dynamic. I choose Python because it has insane library support, I don't like Python as a language though. I would instantly choose Haskell if it had even half the available libraries. But I can't justify having to write everything myself and take 10x as long.