5 ms·

Quite interesting. In Germany or Europe very very few programmers would make more than 100k USD (around 70k EUR) unless he is in some position where he leads a

by kayoone 15y ago

Quite interesting. In Germany or Europe very very few programmers would make more than 100k USD (around 70k EUR) unless he is in some position where he leads a team or oversees bigger projects. Then i see how cheap cars and computer hardware etc is in the US and i really start to wonder where this massive difference comes from. US engineers seem to earn way more and generally pay much less for many things. Apple hardware for example is the same price in EUR as it is USD in the US, cars generally the same or even less.

peteretep 15y ago
Except contractors - good contractor in the UK makes £300-£600 day programming
- Silhouette 15y ago
  I think the survey specifically excluded contractors. In any case, £300-£400 is not unusual for a good, experienced software development contractor in the UK, but plenty make less. You won't normally see rates much above £400 unless you're looking in London and/or at jobs requiring very specialist skills.
- cjg 15y ago
  I've seen several long-term UK contracts for £800 a day. Especially for someone with a niche technology, but also rarely for generalists. That's a rate as advertised by recruiters, so try and get another 12.5% on top if you could go direct. That would be about $340,000 a year (allowing for 25 days holiday over the year).
- kayoone 15y ago
  but do they earn that in a year on average ? i doubt it.
Locke1689 15y ago
It's probably the market -- the demand is higher in the US.
DougWebb 15y ago
We work many more hours and we have to pay more for benefits like health care. Most other medical costs are higher here too; drugs are a lot more expensive in the US than the rest of the world, because the drug companies fold the research and testing costs into our prices, and only include manufacturing and distribution costs in the rest of the world's pricing. Cars might be cheaper here, and gas certainly is, but we use a lot more of both than Europeans because we tend to be spread out a lot more. That's another factor raising our cost of living, which drives up the salaries we demand.
- a3camero 15y ago
  That is not the case that the large drug companies sell for distribution + manufacturing cost. If that were the case, drugs would be essentially free in the rest of the world and they most certainly are not for brand names. In Canada the government sets the price. Here's a chart that's still relevant that shows prices in US/Canada/Mexico: http://cummings.house.gov/pdf/intl.pdf http://cummings.house.gov/pdf/intl.pdf Some generic drugs cost literally pennies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_drug#Economics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_drug#Economics The drug companies convince foreign governments to let them charge more because they say it costs a lot to develop the drugs. Other countries pay too. The US isn't the only one.
  - DougWebb 15y ago
    Obviously they're making a profit too. My point was that they determine prices for most of the world on a mass-production manufacturing basis, while for the US they also include recovering the research and testing costs. That's why we get charged more. (That, and because most of the drug costs are hidden behind the insurance system which helps them get away with this practice.)
    - deleted 15y ago
      [deleted]
  - gnosis 15y ago
    "The drug companies convince foreign governments to let them charge more because they say it costs a lot to develop the drugs." It's kind of funny that they say that, since they're effectively heavily subsidized by the US government -- because virtually all of the basic research in the US (and in the world) is funded by the US government. Pharmaceutical companies get to use the fruits of all that basic research for free.
MrKurtHaeusler 15y ago
I am in Germany, and 70k EUR seems average for someone with experience and/or specialist skills. (Of course less experienced or "motivated" developers will be on a bit less than that). 70k would be low for anyone in a leadership role. Of course half of that gets taxed away, so I wouldn't really compare it to 100k USD.
- darklajid 15y ago
  Can you, without giving away too much information, tell me what kind of market you're talking about (i.e. are you thinking of embedded, financial, whatever)? I'm from Germany as well with (depending on skill) 5-10 years experience and your numbers just don't match mine. Maybe you just confirmed once more that I fail to negotiate, but.. by a large margin.
  - MrKurtHaeusler 15y ago
    I am drawing this from the semiconductor, telecommunications, automotive, healthcare technology, and travel domains. It doesn't really seem that relevant though as software developers are not tied to domains like say hardware engineers, or I guess non-programming domain specialists. Although now that I think about it, software developers do tend to pigeon-hole themselves a bit. I have heard of people calling themselves ".NET developers in the real estate branch", which I suppose is a psychological blocker to jumping to a better-paying job.
  - roel_v 15y ago
    I guess it depends on where in Germany we're talking. The Cologne and Frankfurt areas pay better than the East, from what I hear. But 70k isn't unusual; I was paid 60k straight out of college in Frankfurt, 10 years ago.
sp_ 15y ago
This is exactly why I moved from Germany to the US. I was tired of being on the end of the salary bell curve at international conferences. Higher salary and lower taxes mean that my disposable post-tax income is now 3.5 times what it was in Germany. And I am not even in the Bay Area yet! From my point of view, the situation for software developers is particularly bleak though. You don't have to move to the United States to do much better. Going to Switzerland or Luxembourg is pretty good too.
- bstx 15y ago
  My starting salary in the bay area right out of college is higher than what I would have conceivably made my entire career in Germany. I understand that small companies that do business locally operate with different economics, but what's the excuse for multinational corporations? My decision to work in the US wasn't based in any way on expected compensation but rather on the excitingness of the job. Still, it's nice to be treated well as an employee.
nandemo 15y ago
There's so much more demand in US. They got companies like Microsoft, Google, Intel, AMD, Oracle, etc, plus the combined demand of VC-funded startups. There's no equivalent market in other developed countries, not even UK, Germany and Japan.

by kayoone 15y ago

peteretep 15y ago

Except contractors - good contractor in the UK makes £300-£600 day programming

Silhouette 15y ago
I think the survey specifically excluded contractors. In any case, £300-£400 is not unusual for a good, experienced software development contractor in the UK, but plenty make less. You won't normally see rates much above £400 unless you're looking in London and/or at jobs requiring very specialist skills.
cjg 15y ago
I've seen several long-term UK contracts for £800 a day. Especially for someone with a niche technology, but also rarely for generalists. That's a rate as advertised by recruiters, so try and get another 12.5% on top if you could go direct. That would be about $340,000 a year (allowing for 25 days holiday over the year).
kayoone 15y ago
but do they earn that in a year on average ? i doubt it.

Locke1689 15y ago

It's probably the market -- the demand is higher in the US.

DougWebb 15y ago

We work many more hours and we have to pay more for benefits like health care. Most other medical costs are higher here too; drugs are a lot more expensive in the US than the rest of the world, because the drug companies fold the research and testing costs into our prices, and only include manufacturing and distribution costs in the rest of the world's pricing. Cars might be cheaper here, and gas certainly is, but we use a lot more of both than Europeans because we tend to be spread out a lot more. That's another factor raising our cost of living, which drives up the salaries we demand.

a3camero 15y ago
That is not the case that the large drug companies sell for distribution + manufacturing cost. If that were the case, drugs would be essentially free in the rest of the world and they most certainly are not for brand names. In Canada the government sets the price. Here's a chart that's still relevant that shows prices in US/Canada/Mexico: http://cummings.house.gov/pdf/intl.pdf http://cummings.house.gov/pdf/intl.pdf Some generic drugs cost literally pennies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_drug#Economics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_drug#Economics The drug companies convince foreign governments to let them charge more because they say it costs a lot to develop the drugs. Other countries pay too. The US isn't the only one.
- DougWebb 15y ago
  Obviously they're making a profit too. My point was that they determine prices for most of the world on a mass-production manufacturing basis, while for the US they also include recovering the research and testing costs. That's why we get charged more. (That, and because most of the drug costs are hidden behind the insurance system which helps them get away with this practice.)
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
- gnosis 15y ago
  "The drug companies convince foreign governments to let them charge more because they say it costs a lot to develop the drugs." It's kind of funny that they say that, since they're effectively heavily subsidized by the US government -- because virtually all of the basic research in the US (and in the world) is funded by the US government. Pharmaceutical companies get to use the fruits of all that basic research for free.

MrKurtHaeusler 15y ago

I am in Germany, and 70k EUR seems average for someone with experience and/or specialist skills. (Of course less experienced or "motivated" developers will be on a bit less than that). 70k would be low for anyone in a leadership role. Of course half of that gets taxed away, so I wouldn't really compare it to 100k USD.

darklajid 15y ago
Can you, without giving away too much information, tell me what kind of market you're talking about (i.e. are you thinking of embedded, financial, whatever)? I'm from Germany as well with (depending on skill) 5-10 years experience and your numbers just don't match mine. Maybe you just confirmed once more that I fail to negotiate, but.. by a large margin.
- MrKurtHaeusler 15y ago
  I am drawing this from the semiconductor, telecommunications, automotive, healthcare technology, and travel domains. It doesn't really seem that relevant though as software developers are not tied to domains like say hardware engineers, or I guess non-programming domain specialists. Although now that I think about it, software developers do tend to pigeon-hole themselves a bit. I have heard of people calling themselves ".NET developers in the real estate branch", which I suppose is a psychological blocker to jumping to a better-paying job.
- roel_v 15y ago
  I guess it depends on where in Germany we're talking. The Cologne and Frankfurt areas pay better than the East, from what I hear. But 70k isn't unusual; I was paid 60k straight out of college in Frankfurt, 10 years ago.

sp_ 15y ago

This is exactly why I moved from Germany to the US. I was tired of being on the end of the salary bell curve at international conferences. Higher salary and lower taxes mean that my disposable post-tax income is now 3.5 times what it was in Germany. And I am not even in the Bay Area yet! From my point of view, the situation for software developers is particularly bleak though. You don't have to move to the United States to do much better. Going to Switzerland or Luxembourg is pretty good too.

bstx 15y ago
My starting salary in the bay area right out of college is higher than what I would have conceivably made my entire career in Germany. I understand that small companies that do business locally operate with different economics, but what's the excuse for multinational corporations? My decision to work in the US wasn't based in any way on expected compensation but rather on the excitingness of the job. Still, it's nice to be treated well as an employee.

nandemo 15y ago

There's so much more demand in US. They got companies like Microsoft, Google, Intel, AMD, Oracle, etc, plus the combined demand of VC-funded startups. There's no equivalent market in other developed countries, not even UK, Germany and Japan.