5 ms·

I expect future generations to harbor a unique and refined fire of hatred for our current plastics obsession. In no particular order: - We extract oil from th

by Syonyk 5y ago

I expect future generations to harbor a unique and refined fire of hatred for our current plastics obsession. In no particular order: - We extract oil from the ground, transport it thousands of miles to a factory, build precursors, transport those thousands of miles to other factories, build plastic containers, transport those to yet other places for use, fill them, use them for 10 minutes, discard them, and then transport them tens or hundreds of miles to a landfill (can't recycle them, they've got food waste... or you use a bunch of water to clean them for recycling, but see below). This is insane in any reasonable world. - Plastic recycling is... a polite lie, at best, and more realistically oil company {marketing, propaganda} at work. Some plastics, some of the time, are recyclable a few times to build a high cost, crap material (and relatively few people want to pay more for worse material to work with). Most plastics, most of the time, are junk and somewhere between "not worth the cost" and "technically not possible" to recycle. We used to (as western nations) stuff plastics in a container, ship it to China, and count it as recycled as soon as it left the port regardless of the result. Now, with China having decided that this was stupid, we ship it to whoever will take it, count it as recycled, and then wonder why we find a ton of plastics in the atmosphere and oceans. - As we learn more about plastics, most of the stuff that makes them work turns out to be some level of "somewhat toxic to some life" and "really violently toxic to all life." Most of the really nasty stuff simply doesn't degrade in a useful span, so will be with everyone else on the planet, for somewhere between "an awfully long time" and "the remaining span of humans on the planet." But, hey, super convenient for a couple decades! Can't blame us for making it, right? I mean, there was profit involved - and, more than just profit, convenience. Such profit! Much convenience. All plastics! I don't mind, quite as much, "durable plastics" that are intended to last for a long while. But the entire disposable, super soft plastic ecosystem? This is going to be very, very hated in centuries to come. If it's not sterilized all humans by then. :/

kenjackson 5y ago
What's the preferred alternative to disposable plastic?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- grailed 5y ago
  Reusable materials: Metal/wood utensils. Glass cups. Washable containers. Paper. The list is extensive. The only downside is slightly higher cost.
  - nickff 5y ago
    'Slightly higher cost' is usually symptomatic of higher resource or energy usage in the manufacturing process.
    - kixiQu 5y ago
      Citation?
    - blacksmith_tb 5y ago
      Possibly - or symptomatic of more subsidies going to the fossil fuels industry than to bamboo forestry.
    - ainiriand 5y ago
      OR maybe it is just that the requried industrial layout is not in place yet to make those containers in such a scale. But I think that we need a replacement, and the less plastic we use, more alternatives will appear.
      - Stupulous 5y ago
        These materials predate plastic and existed when the decision to build out the plastic industry was made. Capitalism isn't flawless, but it does handle money very efficiently. If, for example, landfill space was in low supply, the cost of waste disposal would go up and consumers would prefer products that produce less waste. Likewise if oil was running out. Capitalism fails where externalities don't have an immediate cost. The pollutants generated in the production, shipping, and disposal of plastics don't come with financial consequences. Plastic is evidently cheaper than alternatives, so companies who avoid them will be outcompeted by companies that do. Consumers might solve this by boycotting plastics, but I think wealth inequality won't make it easy. Companies might solve this by agreeing not to use plastics, though I'm not sure about the legality and they still could be undercut by new competitors. Or a government could use taxes to add costs to the generation of pollutants, but that depends on pertinent industries' influence and the government's incentives towards national economic performance.
genericone 5y ago
Plastics that consumers end up being responsible for the end-of-life, those need to go. And if consumers need to have it, at least that plastic-like-material must be fully biodegradable, without nano or toxic byproducts or leftovers. Plastics that are used for health/industry/logistics, I think those are fine. At the very least, lets stop doing insane stuff like putting BPA on receipts...
- steve918 5y ago
  Lets just do away with paper receipts.
  - marvindanig 5y ago
    Almost 200% of commenters and lurkers on this thread buy dead-tree books on the design patterns and best practices of a javascript framework from 2012. Yeah, not much hope with that here.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- Syonyk 5y ago
  "Biodegradable plastics" aren't much better than "recyclable plastics," in terms of actual impact. They live in one of two categories, with almost nothing in the "actually useful" region: - "Super, super happy to biodegrade." In fact, they're doing it before you even get it! The plastics aren't really ever nice to use, because they're chemically coming apart in the store. They're UV sensitive, time sensitive, oxygen sensitive, and are generally about as useful as a DivX DVD. By the time you use it, they're a weird, slightly greasy, weirdly weak mess. They don't work. But, hey, they're biofriendly! Or, not, depending on what, exactly, they degrade into. - "Biodegradable." Given certain conditions. 10x solar UV for 100 years. High temperatures, sustained for periods long beyond what any compost pile can do. Requires certain phases of the moon, sustained for a year without interruption. They're "Biodegradable" on paper, but in reality you can't tell the difference between them and something that isn't. In a typical landfill condition, they last roughly forever. Remember, in a landfill, newspaper is not biodegradable. You can layers of a landfill by the newspapers and magazines you dig up, fully readable. It's a totally sealed, anaerobic environment. Very few "bio" things work in that space. If you require "plastics that are full biodegradable, without nano or toxic byproducts or leftovers," you've effectively banned plastics. Which I'm entirely fine with.
jchw 5y ago
“Yes the planet got destroyed. But for a beautiful moment in time we created a lot of value for shareholders.”
ping_pong 5y ago
Non-recyclable plastic should be banned immediately. The fact that we let it persist is ridiculous. I don't care how much costs go up. We should also limit the types of plastic to a handful, and they should all be recyclable in-country. If we can't recycle it, ban it. Let it get replaced by glass or metal. Again, I don't care how expensive it is. Just like climate change prevention, it's something that needs to happen otherwise we are killing humanity.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
maxerickson 5y ago
US based recyclers sell their plastic to companies that then pay to have it shipped elsewhere for reuse. Is the theory that the government (or some other entity) was paying those companies to pay to ship the plastic to China for no reason? (It's very true that most plastics aren't worth much for recycling, but there's considerable use of recycled PETE and HDPE, #1 and #2.)
- Kbelicius 5y ago
  > US based recyclers sell their plastic to companies that then pay to have it shipped elsewhere for reuse. Is it really for reuse or is it just burning/dumping far from sight? This is a genuine question.
  - maxerickson 5y ago
    Why would they pay for it and then haul and dump it somewhere? Like, I know the person at my county landfill that markets the sorted recycled plastic…
    - justinator 5y ago
      It makes me feel good to know that the container that my cottage cheese comes in can be, "recycled" and thus I feel good buying my cottage cheese. That's worth something, yeah?
      - maxerickson 5y ago
        #5 is one of the ones that isn't worth recycling. I'm not really sure what your point is though. My initial comment is about the strange narrative that plastic was getting shipped to China for no reason (it would be cheaper to landfill it here than there, so the whole 'greed' thing means there was probably a reason for it).
        justinator 5y ago
        I'm saying the false narrative that recycling is done really at all is a marketing ploy to sell more things, while making the consumer think they're making a good choice for the environment. Good marketing!
wefarrell 5y ago
I imagine a future textbook might read: The petroleum age: A period where advances in chemistry and materials outpaced cultural and administrative development. Early on, Capitalism was proven to be the most productive economic system in the war-time economy, but this posed a problem once World War 2 had ended. Western industry pivoted from war spending to consumer spending and the post war period ushered in rapid improvements in quality of life for average members of society. Unfortunately those gains came at the expense of the environment and are being paid for by the current generation and generations to come. While it took only a matter of years to transition from a war driven economy to one based on consumer goods, it took nearly a century (possibly more) to transition towards sustainable methods of production and consumption.

by Syonyk 5y ago

kenjackson 5y ago

What's the preferred alternative to disposable plastic?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
grailed 5y ago
Reusable materials: Metal/wood utensils. Glass cups. Washable containers. Paper. The list is extensive. The only downside is slightly higher cost.
- nickff 5y ago
  'Slightly higher cost' is usually symptomatic of higher resource or energy usage in the manufacturing process.
  - kixiQu 5y ago
    Citation?
  - blacksmith_tb 5y ago
    Possibly - or symptomatic of more subsidies going to the fossil fuels industry than to bamboo forestry.
  - ainiriand 5y ago
    OR maybe it is just that the requried industrial layout is not in place yet to make those containers in such a scale. But I think that we need a replacement, and the less plastic we use, more alternatives will appear.
    - Stupulous 5y ago
      These materials predate plastic and existed when the decision to build out the plastic industry was made. Capitalism isn't flawless, but it does handle money very efficiently. If, for example, landfill space was in low supply, the cost of waste disposal would go up and consumers would prefer products that produce less waste. Likewise if oil was running out. Capitalism fails where externalities don't have an immediate cost. The pollutants generated in the production, shipping, and disposal of plastics don't come with financial consequences. Plastic is evidently cheaper than alternatives, so companies who avoid them will be outcompeted by companies that do. Consumers might solve this by boycotting plastics, but I think wealth inequality won't make it easy. Companies might solve this by agreeing not to use plastics, though I'm not sure about the legality and they still could be undercut by new competitors. Or a government could use taxes to add costs to the generation of pollutants, but that depends on pertinent industries' influence and the government's incentives towards national economic performance.

genericone 5y ago

Plastics that consumers end up being responsible for the end-of-life, those need to go. And if consumers need to have it, at least that plastic-like-material must be fully biodegradable, without nano or toxic byproducts or leftovers. Plastics that are used for health/industry/logistics, I think those are fine. At the very least, lets stop doing insane stuff like putting BPA on receipts...

steve918 5y ago
Lets just do away with paper receipts.
- marvindanig 5y ago
  Almost 200% of commenters and lurkers on this thread buy dead-tree books on the design patterns and best practices of a javascript framework from 2012. Yeah, not much hope with that here.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
Syonyk 5y ago
"Biodegradable plastics" aren't much better than "recyclable plastics," in terms of actual impact. They live in one of two categories, with almost nothing in the "actually useful" region: - "Super, super happy to biodegrade." In fact, they're doing it before you even get it! The plastics aren't really ever nice to use, because they're chemically coming apart in the store. They're UV sensitive, time sensitive, oxygen sensitive, and are generally about as useful as a DivX DVD. By the time you use it, they're a weird, slightly greasy, weirdly weak mess. They don't work. But, hey, they're biofriendly! Or, not, depending on what, exactly, they degrade into. - "Biodegradable." Given certain conditions. 10x solar UV for 100 years. High temperatures, sustained for periods long beyond what any compost pile can do. Requires certain phases of the moon, sustained for a year without interruption. They're "Biodegradable" on paper, but in reality you can't tell the difference between them and something that isn't. In a typical landfill condition, they last roughly forever. Remember, in a landfill, newspaper is not biodegradable. You can layers of a landfill by the newspapers and magazines you dig up, fully readable. It's a totally sealed, anaerobic environment. Very few "bio" things work in that space. If you require "plastics that are full biodegradable, without nano or toxic byproducts or leftovers," you've effectively banned plastics. Which I'm entirely fine with.

jchw 5y ago

“Yes the planet got destroyed. But for a beautiful moment in time we created a lot of value for shareholders.”

ping_pong 5y ago

Non-recyclable plastic should be banned immediately. The fact that we let it persist is ridiculous. I don't care how much costs go up. We should also limit the types of plastic to a handful, and they should all be recyclable in-country. If we can't recycle it, ban it. Let it get replaced by glass or metal. Again, I don't care how expensive it is. Just like climate change prevention, it's something that needs to happen otherwise we are killing humanity.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

maxerickson 5y ago

US based recyclers sell their plastic to companies that then pay to have it shipped elsewhere for reuse. Is the theory that the government (or some other entity) was paying those companies to pay to ship the plastic to China for no reason? (It's very true that most plastics aren't worth much for recycling, but there's considerable use of recycled PETE and HDPE, #1 and #2.)

Kbelicius 5y ago
> US based recyclers sell their plastic to companies that then pay to have it shipped elsewhere for reuse. Is it really for reuse or is it just burning/dumping far from sight? This is a genuine question.
- maxerickson 5y ago
  Why would they pay for it and then haul and dump it somewhere? Like, I know the person at my county landfill that markets the sorted recycled plastic…
  - justinator 5y ago
    It makes me feel good to know that the container that my cottage cheese comes in can be, "recycled" and thus I feel good buying my cottage cheese. That's worth something, yeah?
    - maxerickson 5y ago
      #5 is one of the ones that isn't worth recycling. I'm not really sure what your point is though. My initial comment is about the strange narrative that plastic was getting shipped to China for no reason (it would be cheaper to landfill it here than there, so the whole 'greed' thing means there was probably a reason for it).
      - justinator 5y ago
        I'm saying the false narrative that recycling is done really at all is a marketing ploy to sell more things, while making the consumer think they're making a good choice for the environment. Good marketing!

wefarrell 5y ago

I imagine a future textbook might read: The petroleum age: A period where advances in chemistry and materials outpaced cultural and administrative development. Early on, Capitalism was proven to be the most productive economic system in the war-time economy, but this posed a problem once World War 2 had ended. Western industry pivoted from war spending to consumer spending and the post war period ushered in rapid improvements in quality of life for average members of society. Unfortunately those gains came at the expense of the environment and are being paid for by the current generation and generations to come. While it took only a matter of years to transition from a war driven economy to one based on consumer goods, it took nearly a century (possibly more) to transition towards sustainable methods of production and consumption.