13 ms·

I don't think recipes lie, I think most people don't understand what caramelizing is versus softening. Caramelizing is great for onion focused recipes like Fren

by dexwiz 5y ago

I don't think recipes lie, I think most people don't understand what caramelizing is versus softening. Caramelizing is great for onion focused recipes like French Onion Soup and creates a rich flavor profile. But for everyday recipes using Mirepoix-like flavor base, 10 minutes is enough to cook out the water, lessen the Sulfur flavors, and soften the onions. A stock concentrate can help boost the flavor profile without needing an hour. Softening is enough for most people, and recipes are starting to use that term over Caramelizing.

eesmith 5y ago
Here are three quoted recipe instructions: ] "Add the onions to the skillet and increase the heat to medium-high. Cook until they begin to turn dark brown and somewhat soft, about 5 minutes." ] “Stir and fry for about 5 minutes or until the onions turn a medium-brown colour.” ] “Add the onion and cook for 8 to 10 minutes, stirring occasionally, until golden brown.” How do you get "dark", "medium-brown", or "golden brown" in under 10 minutes, and without caramelizing?
- moistly 5y ago
  Add a pinch of baking soda. First DDG link: https://www.onions-usa.org/onionista/faster-caramelized-onions-with-baking-soda/ https://www.onions-usa.org/onionista/faster-caramelized-onio...
  - eesmith 5y ago
    So it's a lie of omission? Those quoted recipes don't mention baking soda.
    - moistly 5y ago
      The quoted recipes were written by people who don’t know what they are doing.
      - eesmith 5y ago
        Ah, you're making a Hanlon's razor sort of argument. In which case the layer of deceit is the conceit that the editors of popular cookbooks can spot and will correct obvious BS.
        TX0098812 5y ago
        The "layer of deceit" is that they claim you can do something in a particular way within a certain time frame and that this is not actually possible. And cook books aren't written by editors.
        eesmith 5y ago
        I'm responding to moistly's comment, not the essay. Certainly editors don't write cookbooks. But they decide what to publish. I personally think the essay is correct. My followup on this thread is that even if the essay isn't correct, there are still other "layers of deceit" to consider. The top-level of this thread was dexwiz's statement "I don't think recipes lie". I pointed out how that statement doesn't jibe with the presented evidence. moistly followed up that it wasn't a lie, but ignorance "by people who don’t know what they are doing." My observation is that if we accept that the authors aren't lying, but are simply incompetent, then a different layer of deceit arises - the belief that cooking columns in national newspapers and cookbooks by reputable publishing companies will have enough oversight and not publish recipes 'by people who don’t know what they are doing'.
        bombcar 5y ago
        But editors are likely to be the type to change “brown” to “caramelize” because it sounds more upscale.
  - TX0098812 5y ago
    1. I've seen lots of recipes that mention if describe caramelization and not one has mentioned baking soda so it's besides the point. 2. None of them will ever list baking soda because it will affect the taste in a horrible way.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - resoluteteeth 5y ago
    Baking soda speeds up the process but it also affects the texture in a way that isn't really pleasant unless you're pureeing the onions for soup.
  - Broken_Hippo 5y ago
    It isn't really worth it unless you are making a good amount. It is adjusting PH, which might get you color faster, but it is pretty easy to get too much in and have your onions taste of chemicals. The linked article went with 1/8 teaspoon (.625 grams) per pound (about 450g) of onion. It makes it really easy to get too much, especially when you are just doing 1 or two onions. Unless the dish relies on the flavor of caramelized onions, I just go with lesser cooking time.
    - moistly 5y ago
      All true: I do mean a literal pinch. I use it for batches of French onion soup so, yes, a lot of onions (most of it goes straight to the freezer, to mature like a fine wine.
  - xeromal 5y ago
    https://www.seriouseats.com/how-to-caramelize-onions-classic https://www.seriouseats.com/how-to-caramelize-onions-classic These guys say baking soda turns it into sludge.
- yokaze 5y ago
  Here you go: https://www.thespruceeats.com/how-to-brown-onions-913397 https://www.thespruceeats.com/how-to-brown-onions-913397 There is browning and there is caramelisation.
  - watwut 5y ago
    They get brown within 10 minutes. I never cared about caramelization, but onions can change color rather fast.
    - TX0098812 5y ago
      If we just want them to change color we can do that a whole lot faster than 10 minutes. But you wouldn't like the taste. :)
      - austhrow743 5y ago
        Sure but they get brown in a tasty way in ten minutes.
  - TX0098812 5y ago
    Browning, unless we're talking about burning onions, is caramelisation. Just a small amount.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > Browning, unless we’re talking about burning onions, is caramelisation No, its not. Heck, even “caramelizing” onions mostly isn’t caramelization, its Maillard-reaction browning combined with slower cooking so that the cooking is more complete, retaining less of the firm texture. https://www.thespruceeats.com/how-to-brown-onions-913397 https://www.thespruceeats.com/how-to-brown-onions-913397
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > How do you get “dark”, “medium-brown”, or “golden brown” in under 10 minutes, and without caramelizing? Thin cuts, a decent pan, avoid sweet onions (which take longer to brown), and use a little higher heat than the center of the medium-high range, IME. Browning is much quicker than caramelizing (see, e.g., https://marxfood.com/caramelizing-onions-vs-browning-onions/ https://marxfood.com/caramelizing-onions-vs-browning-onions/ which gives 15 minutes for browning, and an hour for caramelizing; you can push browning more easily.) (The quoted 5 to brown + 5 to caramelize in TFA is bullshit, though, no question, but most of the quotes in the article aren’t about caramelizing, they are about browning – often lightly browning – in a fairly reasonable time for the level of browning described.)
  - cout 5y ago
    Sweet onions take longer to brown? Whatever kind of sweet onions we get locally start to turn brown after 7 minutes on medium high (keeping the skillet around 350F).
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > Sweet onions take longer to brown? I’ve read that the lack of sulfur compounds has that effect, and my subjective impression is consistent with that, but I haven’t done structured trials. (And I don’t prefer sweet onions in those applications, in any case.)
      - sammalloy 5y ago
        This makes a lot of sense and goes a long way to explain the time discrepancies. It's sad that I had to scroll down the page and find these comments buried at the bottom when they should be at the top.
- Blikkentrekker 5y ago
  Perhaps they have higher stoves. I would not say caramelized, but I certainly get significant browning in less than 3 minutes in a wok on a 7 500 W work burner. Most ordinary stoves are about 2 000 W, but apparently professional stoves go to 4 000 W, and the professional “jet engine” work burners in many restaurants achieve 20 000 W.
  - ghaff 5y ago
    I have a fairly high output gas range and my observation is that a lot of recipes overstate the settings I want to use. On the flip side, to your point, the large burner on my stove is fine for a wok (I'd have to look up the output) but it's a lot more than a typical electric stove would put out (and hears up the sides)--which is why America's Test Kitchen recommends people use a skillet rather than a wok.
  - bombcar 5y ago
    And the pan matters too - a wok may heat up faster on the same burner compared to cast iron. And “professional kitchens” often have everything at temperature already - the wok was just used moments before so there’s no preheating.
  - madengr 5y ago
    I recently put in a 36 kW (125 kBTU/hr) wok burner, outdoors of course. It’s insane how hot it gets. https://youtu.be/O-Y5XJwBPvw https://youtu.be/O-Y5XJwBPvw
- nmcveity 5y ago
  I don't think the Madhur Jaffrey recipe actually calls for caramelisation but I don't have the original in front of me. It would also use red onions and be done in a pan that is more like to a wok than to a western pan, iirc.
  - eesmith 5y ago
    The quote is on page 52: https://archive.org/details/madhurjaffreysin0000jaff_r5e9/page/52/mode/2up?q=onions+turn+a+medium-brown+colour https://archive.org/details/madhurjaffreysin0000jaff_r5e9/pa... . > Heat the oil in a wide, heavy pot over a medium-high flame. Brown the meat cubes in several batches and set to one side. Put the cardamom, bay leaves, cloves, peppercorns, and cinnamon into the same hot oil. Stir once and wait until the cloves swell and the bay leaves begin to take on colour. This just takes a few seconds. Now put in the onions. Stir and fry for about 5 minutes or until the onions turn a medium-brown colour. For some other quotes along the same lines: page 51 at https://archive.org/details/madhurjaffreysin0000jaff_r5e9/page/50/mode/2up?q=onion-garlic+mixture https://archive.org/details/madhurjaffreysin0000jaff_r5e9/pa... : > Heat the oil in a wide, flameproof casserole-type pot over a medium-high flame. ... Put the onions and garlic into the same pot and turn the heat down to medium. Stir and fry the onion-garlic mixture for about 10 minutes or until it has browned. (The introductory text on page 50 is clear this is supposed to be a "heavy pot", not something thin like a wok.) Page 46 at https://archive.org/details/madhurjaffreysin0000jaff_r5e9/page/46/mode/2up?q=onions+turn+a+medium-brown+colour https://archive.org/details/madhurjaffreysin0000jaff_r5e9/pa... : > Heat the oil in a wide, heavy saucepan over a medium-high flame. When hot, put in the finely sliced onions. Stir and fry for 10-12 minutes or until the onions turn a nice, reddish-brown colour. You may have to turn the heat down somewhat towards the end of this cooking period. Page 55 at https://archive.org/details/madhurjaffreysin0000jaff_r5e9/page/54/mode/2up?q=onions+turn+a+medium-brown+colour https://archive.org/details/madhurjaffreysin0000jaff_r5e9/pa... : > Heat the oil in a large, wide, and preferably non-stick pot over a medium-high flame. When hot, put in the onions. Stir and fry for about 12 minutes or until the onions are a reddish-brown color.
    - bifftastic 5y ago
      I don't believe this refers to caramelized onions, which are sweet and slowly cooked. It refers to onions fried at a high temperature until brown or turning brown. This can certainly be done in under 10 minutes and is common in Indian cookery. I cook a Madhur Jaffrey recipe or two most weeks.
- SamBam 5y ago
  Seriously? Onions easily brown in 10 minutes. They're not caramelized, but the vast majority of recipes mean browned when they say "10 minutes." Very few recipes actually want caramelized onions. For instance, almost zero Italian recipes involve caramelizing.

by dexwiz 5y ago

eesmith 5y ago

Here are three quoted recipe instructions: ] "Add the onions to the skillet and increase the heat to medium-high. Cook until they begin to turn dark brown and somewhat soft, about 5 minutes." ] “Stir and fry for about 5 minutes or until the onions turn a medium-brown colour.” ] “Add the onion and cook for 8 to 10 minutes, stirring occasionally, until golden brown.” How do you get "dark", "medium-brown", or "golden brown" in under 10 minutes, and without caramelizing?

moistly 5y ago
Add a pinch of baking soda. First DDG link: https://www.onions-usa.org/onionista/faster-caramelized-onions-with-baking-soda/ https://www.onions-usa.org/onionista/faster-caramelized-onio...
- eesmith 5y ago
  So it's a lie of omission? Those quoted recipes don't mention baking soda.
  - moistly 5y ago
    The quoted recipes were written by people who don’t know what they are doing.
    - eesmith 5y ago
      Ah, you're making a Hanlon's razor sort of argument. In which case the layer of deceit is the conceit that the editors of popular cookbooks can spot and will correct obvious BS.
      - TX0098812 5y ago
        The "layer of deceit" is that they claim you can do something in a particular way within a certain time frame and that this is not actually possible. And cook books aren't written by editors.
        eesmith 5y ago
        I'm responding to moistly's comment, not the essay. Certainly editors don't write cookbooks. But they decide what to publish. I personally think the essay is correct. My followup on this thread is that even if the essay isn't correct, there are still other "layers of deceit" to consider. The top-level of this thread was dexwiz's statement "I don't think recipes lie". I pointed out how that statement doesn't jibe with the presented evidence. moistly followed up that it wasn't a lie, but ignorance "by people who don’t know what they are doing." My observation is that if we accept that the authors aren't lying, but are simply incompetent, then a different layer of deceit arises - the belief that cooking columns in national newspapers and cookbooks by reputable publishing companies will have enough oversight and not publish recipes 'by people who don’t know what they are doing'.
        bombcar 5y ago
        But editors are likely to be the type to change “brown” to “caramelize” because it sounds more upscale.
- TX0098812 5y ago
  1. I've seen lots of recipes that mention if describe caramelization and not one has mentioned baking soda so it's besides the point. 2. None of them will ever list baking soda because it will affect the taste in a horrible way.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- resoluteteeth 5y ago
  Baking soda speeds up the process but it also affects the texture in a way that isn't really pleasant unless you're pureeing the onions for soup.
- Broken_Hippo 5y ago
  It isn't really worth it unless you are making a good amount. It is adjusting PH, which might get you color faster, but it is pretty easy to get too much in and have your onions taste of chemicals. The linked article went with 1/8 teaspoon (.625 grams) per pound (about 450g) of onion. It makes it really easy to get too much, especially when you are just doing 1 or two onions. Unless the dish relies on the flavor of caramelized onions, I just go with lesser cooking time.
  - moistly 5y ago
    All true: I do mean a literal pinch. I use it for batches of French onion soup so, yes, a lot of onions (most of it goes straight to the freezer, to mature like a fine wine.
- xeromal 5y ago
  https://www.seriouseats.com/how-to-caramelize-onions-classic https://www.seriouseats.com/how-to-caramelize-onions-classic These guys say baking soda turns it into sludge.
yokaze 5y ago
Here you go: https://www.thespruceeats.com/how-to-brown-onions-913397 https://www.thespruceeats.com/how-to-brown-onions-913397 There is browning and there is caramelisation.
- watwut 5y ago
  They get brown within 10 minutes. I never cared about caramelization, but onions can change color rather fast.
  - TX0098812 5y ago
    If we just want them to change color we can do that a whole lot faster than 10 minutes. But you wouldn't like the taste. :)
    - austhrow743 5y ago
      Sure but they get brown in a tasty way in ten minutes.
- TX0098812 5y ago
  Browning, unless we're talking about burning onions, is caramelisation. Just a small amount.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > Browning, unless we’re talking about burning onions, is caramelisation No, its not. Heck, even “caramelizing” onions mostly isn’t caramelization, its Maillard-reaction browning combined with slower cooking so that the cooking is more complete, retaining less of the firm texture. https://www.thespruceeats.com/how-to-brown-onions-913397 https://www.thespruceeats.com/how-to-brown-onions-913397
dragonwriter 5y ago
> How do you get “dark”, “medium-brown”, or “golden brown” in under 10 minutes, and without caramelizing? Thin cuts, a decent pan, avoid sweet onions (which take longer to brown), and use a little higher heat than the center of the medium-high range, IME. Browning is much quicker than caramelizing (see, e.g., https://marxfood.com/caramelizing-onions-vs-browning-onions/ https://marxfood.com/caramelizing-onions-vs-browning-onions/ which gives 15 minutes for browning, and an hour for caramelizing; you can push browning more easily.) (The quoted 5 to brown + 5 to caramelize in TFA is bullshit, though, no question, but most of the quotes in the article aren’t about caramelizing, they are about browning – often lightly browning – in a fairly reasonable time for the level of browning described.)
- cout 5y ago
  Sweet onions take longer to brown? Whatever kind of sweet onions we get locally start to turn brown after 7 minutes on medium high (keeping the skillet around 350F).
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > Sweet onions take longer to brown? I’ve read that the lack of sulfur compounds has that effect, and my subjective impression is consistent with that, but I haven’t done structured trials. (And I don’t prefer sweet onions in those applications, in any case.)
    - sammalloy 5y ago
      This makes a lot of sense and goes a long way to explain the time discrepancies. It's sad that I had to scroll down the page and find these comments buried at the bottom when they should be at the top.
Blikkentrekker 5y ago
Perhaps they have higher stoves. I would not say caramelized, but I certainly get significant browning in less than 3 minutes in a wok on a 7 500 W work burner. Most ordinary stoves are about 2 000 W, but apparently professional stoves go to 4 000 W, and the professional “jet engine” work burners in many restaurants achieve 20 000 W.
- ghaff 5y ago
  I have a fairly high output gas range and my observation is that a lot of recipes overstate the settings I want to use. On the flip side, to your point, the large burner on my stove is fine for a wok (I'd have to look up the output) but it's a lot more than a typical electric stove would put out (and hears up the sides)--which is why America's Test Kitchen recommends people use a skillet rather than a wok.
- bombcar 5y ago
  And the pan matters too - a wok may heat up faster on the same burner compared to cast iron. And “professional kitchens” often have everything at temperature already - the wok was just used moments before so there’s no preheating.
- madengr 5y ago
  I recently put in a 36 kW (125 kBTU/hr) wok burner, outdoors of course. It’s insane how hot it gets. https://youtu.be/O-Y5XJwBPvw https://youtu.be/O-Y5XJwBPvw
nmcveity 5y ago
I don't think the Madhur Jaffrey recipe actually calls for caramelisation but I don't have the original in front of me. It would also use red onions and be done in a pan that is more like to a wok than to a western pan, iirc.
- eesmith 5y ago
  The quote is on page 52: https://archive.org/details/madhurjaffreysin0000jaff_r5e9/page/52/mode/2up?q=onions+turn+a+medium-brown+colour https://archive.org/details/madhurjaffreysin0000jaff_r5e9/pa... . > Heat the oil in a wide, heavy pot over a medium-high flame. Brown the meat cubes in several batches and set to one side. Put the cardamom, bay leaves, cloves, peppercorns, and cinnamon into the same hot oil. Stir once and wait until the cloves swell and the bay leaves begin to take on colour. This just takes a few seconds. Now put in the onions. Stir and fry for about 5 minutes or until the onions turn a medium-brown colour. For some other quotes along the same lines: page 51 at https://archive.org/details/madhurjaffreysin0000jaff_r5e9/page/50/mode/2up?q=onion-garlic+mixture https://archive.org/details/madhurjaffreysin0000jaff_r5e9/pa... : > Heat the oil in a wide, flameproof casserole-type pot over a medium-high flame. ... Put the onions and garlic into the same pot and turn the heat down to medium. Stir and fry the onion-garlic mixture for about 10 minutes or until it has browned. (The introductory text on page 50 is clear this is supposed to be a "heavy pot", not something thin like a wok.) Page 46 at https://archive.org/details/madhurjaffreysin0000jaff_r5e9/page/46/mode/2up?q=onions+turn+a+medium-brown+colour https://archive.org/details/madhurjaffreysin0000jaff_r5e9/pa... : > Heat the oil in a wide, heavy saucepan over a medium-high flame. When hot, put in the finely sliced onions. Stir and fry for 10-12 minutes or until the onions turn a nice, reddish-brown colour. You may have to turn the heat down somewhat towards the end of this cooking period. Page 55 at https://archive.org/details/madhurjaffreysin0000jaff_r5e9/page/54/mode/2up?q=onions+turn+a+medium-brown+colour https://archive.org/details/madhurjaffreysin0000jaff_r5e9/pa... : > Heat the oil in a large, wide, and preferably non-stick pot over a medium-high flame. When hot, put in the onions. Stir and fry for about 12 minutes or until the onions are a reddish-brown color.
  - bifftastic 5y ago
    I don't believe this refers to caramelized onions, which are sweet and slowly cooked. It refers to onions fried at a high temperature until brown or turning brown. This can certainly be done in under 10 minutes and is common in Indian cookery. I cook a Madhur Jaffrey recipe or two most weeks.
SamBam 5y ago
Seriously? Onions easily brown in 10 minutes. They're not caramelized, but the vast majority of recipes mean browned when they say "10 minutes." Very few recipes actually want caramelized onions. For instance, almost zero Italian recipes involve caramelizing.