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> 1. is pretty close for ex: most brain functions can be called subjective, and therefore not that relevant. Sorry for the delay. HN is not a great forum for

> 1. is pretty close for ex: most brain functions can be called subjective, and therefore not that relevant. Sorry for the delay. HN is not a great forum for long discussions (on purpose, I guess). I've been noodling on this for awhile, and so maybe just blathering into the ether. I'm not sure that subjective and irrelevant necessarily go together. I guess the argument I'm thinking of is more this: my pronoun preference is biological, so if my chromosomes disagree with my pronoun preference why should my chromosomes govern communication protocols instead of the rest of my biology? If these things are truly irrelevant, then the notion of gender identity is itself irrelevant and so, too, are pronouns, aren't they? (I mean, maybe not, but I don't see how one could say chromosomes don't matter but preferences do.) One of the real challenges gender identity raises is that it acknowledges that the body actually means something. It also implies that language means something. Mind and body go together, and when they disagree some kind of resolution is needed. Language shapes reality, so when language contradicts that resolution the reality of my existence, my very identity, is threatened or negated. If we stipulate that, I think we have to admit pronoun use really isn't neutral. It's not merely a matter of common decency and respect (although it certainly is part of that), but about what we think it means to be human and how we attempt to shape and react to reality. My own thoughts here aren't super well formed, hence my line of questioning and (perhaps poorly worded and thought out) reasoning...but I do think it bears some critical examination.

nandhinianand 5y ago
I think we're on the same page..I was collating subjective and irrelevant together for the sake of the parent comment. and it is quite common in the "objectivist philosophy/meta-physical" view . > Language shapes reality, Sorry I have disagree on this one. I don't think language shapes reality. It definitely shapes our perception, filters, and biases but shapes reality only in a very Probabilistic graphical model sense. And even then it shapes(as in cavemen---> civilization) reality as much as say, air shapes reality, mathematical formulae and theories shape reality . My usual stance on the gender identity debate comes along with the "freedom to swing your arm but not hit my nose" sense. In this case of weightlifting for ex: I recently saw a twitter mention comparing the same athlete before starting HRT therapy and now.(along with a co-competitor in the male category she used to compete with) It pointed out how much the gap between both the lifters progress has been because of the Hormones. Anyway, I don't have a clear stance on trans-people competing in their gender category .. I think the gender based categorization in sports has to move further, but I'm ambiguous even about how the sports laws work on even doping. So since I don't have skin-in-the-game I only try to add clarity to the discussion without taking either stance strongly.
- memling 5y ago
  > > Language shapes reality, > Sorry I have disagree on this one. I don't think language shapes reality. It definitely shapes our perception, filters, and biases but shapes reality only in a very Probabilistic graphical model sense. And even then it shapes(as in cavemen---> civilization) reality as much as say, air shapes reality, mathematical formulae and theories shape reality . Sorry if it's not clear: I'm not trying to say what's true, despite having opinions on the subject; I'm interested in best arguments. What I think the implications are in assuming that gender is as much state-of-mind as state-of-body (if not more) is two-fold: 1. The body really does matter. It's inconsistent to say that the body has to align with the mind if the body doesn't matter. Surgical and hormonal intervention make no sense if the mind and the body aren't somehow connected in a very deep way. 2. The desire for pronoun usage is more, too, than mere courtesy, but the desire for consensus on reality. If I'm a woman trapped in a man's body or have no particular gender, when I ask someone to use pronouns of my preference I am actually asking them to make a statement about what is real and true. This implies in no small way that language shapes and makes reality in some nontrivial way.

nandhinianand 5y ago

I think we're on the same page..I was collating subjective and irrelevant together for the sake of the parent comment. and it is quite common in the "objectivist philosophy/meta-physical" view . > Language shapes reality, Sorry I have disagree on this one. I don't think language shapes reality. It definitely shapes our perception, filters, and biases but shapes reality only in a very Probabilistic graphical model sense. And even then it shapes(as in cavemen---> civilization) reality as much as say, air shapes reality, mathematical formulae and theories shape reality . My usual stance on the gender identity debate comes along with the "freedom to swing your arm but not hit my nose" sense. In this case of weightlifting for ex: I recently saw a twitter mention comparing the same athlete before starting HRT therapy and now.(along with a co-competitor in the male category she used to compete with) It pointed out how much the gap between both the lifters progress has been because of the Hormones. Anyway, I don't have a clear stance on trans-people competing in their gender category .. I think the gender based categorization in sports has to move further, but I'm ambiguous even about how the sports laws work on even doping. So since I don't have skin-in-the-game I only try to add clarity to the discussion without taking either stance strongly.

memling 5y ago
> > Language shapes reality, > Sorry I have disagree on this one. I don't think language shapes reality. It definitely shapes our perception, filters, and biases but shapes reality only in a very Probabilistic graphical model sense. And even then it shapes(as in cavemen---> civilization) reality as much as say, air shapes reality, mathematical formulae and theories shape reality . Sorry if it's not clear: I'm not trying to say what's true, despite having opinions on the subject; I'm interested in best arguments. What I think the implications are in assuming that gender is as much state-of-mind as state-of-body (if not more) is two-fold: 1. The body really does matter. It's inconsistent to say that the body has to align with the mind if the body doesn't matter. Surgical and hormonal intervention make no sense if the mind and the body aren't somehow connected in a very deep way. 2. The desire for pronoun usage is more, too, than mere courtesy, but the desire for consensus on reality. If I'm a woman trapped in a man's body or have no particular gender, when I ask someone to use pronouns of my preference I am actually asking them to make a statement about what is real and true. This implies in no small way that language shapes and makes reality in some nontrivial way.