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> privacy-preserving data collection system I hate this. Viscerally. Why, why, WHY does every “privacy first” system, platform, whatever, start with the presum

> privacy-preserving data collection system I hate this. Viscerally. Why, why, WHY does every “privacy first” system, platform, whatever, start with the presumption that some people should get your data and it’s just a matter of vetting the “good” groups from the “bad” groups. No. That isn’t privacy. No one should get my data. And it’s ridiculous that all of these companies try to position their data grabbing projects as “privacy” oriented when what they really mean is they’re not quite as invasive and/or are slightly more transparent about their data theft compared to others. </rant>

jefftk 5y ago
Rally is entirely opt-in, so I think you're off the mark here?
9wzYQbTYsAIc 5y ago
> start with the presumption that some people should get your data Some people do want others to have their data. Dropbox is a great example of a successful business that is built on the idea of sharing data.
- Ensorceled 5y ago
  Yes, I want to use Dropbox to share my invoice with my client and my client to share the assets from their designer with me. I don't want anybody tracking what websites I visit, articles I read or facebook videos I watch. These are two VERY different definitions of "data", mingling the two is not helpful to discourse.
  - Nicksil 5y ago
    >I don't want anybody tracking what websites I visit, articles I read or facebook videos I watch. This whole thing is opt-in, is it not? If you don't want to share your information, you simply do not opt-in.
    - Ensorceled 5y ago
      I'm replying to the person who used Dropbox as an example of "Some people do want others to have their data." in order to clear up their confusion.
  - 9wzYQbTYsAIc 5y ago
    > These are two VERY different definitions of "data", mingling the two is not helpful to discourse. Indeed, data has complex nuances that are sometimes missed. Let’s not mingle data intended for advertisement with data intended for social science research.
    - Ensorceled 5y ago
      > Let’s not mingle data intended for advertisement with data intended for social science research. Well those are two different USAGES of the same type of data (tracking). That one is good and the other bad is a different discussion.
      - 9wzYQbTYsAIc 5y ago
        > That one is good and the other bad is a different discussion. In my estimation, that is the current discussion.
xpe 5y ago
I understand this is a sensitive area, and I understand that reasonable people have good reasons to be concerned. But it seems that you are directing your frustrations at Mozilla unfairly. I find this to be a good definition of privacy: > Privacy is the ability of an individual or group to seclude themselves or information about themselves, and thereby express themselves selectively. - Wikipedia From what I've read, Mozilla's Rally gives people the ability to choose what research studies to participate in. I think there is plenty of discussion to be had about what level of control and granularity works best for different people, but I have confidence that Mozilla has both the right incentives and technical capability to contribute meaningfully in this space.
- splistud 5y ago
  Part of the problem with large internet platforms is that parts of 'my data' is inextricably linked to 'your data', even to the extent that 'my data' only exists on some platforms as data points in 'your data'. In that sense any opt-in choice given to another is yet another privacy breach on their 'contacts' for example. I've seen the opinion expressed that part of the reason society allows this type of surveillance is that so many members of our society don't understand the details or scope. If true, whatever discussions we have about this should include the idea that we're proposing to increase the scope of the problem while researching it.
  - xpe 5y ago
    Yes, calling out linkage as a key challenge for data privacy is very important. To dig in one level deeper... Have you looked into privacy-preserving record linkage (PPRL) or similar ideas? (I have not, but I'm interested.) > The process of linking records without revealing any sensitive or confidential information about the entities represented by these records is known as privacy-preserving record linkage (PPRL). > Source: "Privacy-Preserving Record Linkage". > DOI: https://doi.org/10.1007/978-3-319-63962-8_17-1 https://doi.org/10.1007/978-3-319-63962-8_17-1 See also: "A taxonomy of privacy-preserving record linkage techniques" at https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0306437912001470 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03064...
  - 5y ago
mikeiz404 5y ago
I see where you are coming from but it is opt-in so I don’t believe that is theft. All scientific research requires data and certain types of research require certain types of data to be useful. I’m personally against ad driven data collection because 1) I don’t think as a whole its outcomes, both first order and second order, are in the long term interests of the viewers or society. However assuming you can trust the data collected and how it is used is only as stated then studies looking to understand online interactions, where more and more of our lives are being lived, with the interest of improving long term outcomes seems like a good thing to me. Of course once the data is out of your hands you loose control over it so it’s good that Mozilla is doing data minimization and aggregation to help reduce the impacts of that. I guess it really boils down to trust, intent, our ability to choose, and transparency which has not been respected in many cases so I very much do understand the skepticism. Here is to hoping this will be different. So far, in my opinion, this looks to be the case. Some of the current studies [1]: - Political and COVID-19 News - Your Time Online and "Doomscrolling" Edit: I read your comment [2] in another thread about the privacy policy, and that is a good point. I sent an email to mozilla asking for clarification and if I get a reply I will add it here. 1: https://rally.mozilla.org/current-studies/ https://rally.mozilla.org/current-studies/ 2: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27633918 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27633918

jefftk 5y ago

Rally is entirely opt-in, so I think you're off the mark here?

9wzYQbTYsAIc 5y ago

> start with the presumption that some people should get your data Some people do want others to have their data. Dropbox is a great example of a successful business that is built on the idea of sharing data.

Ensorceled 5y ago
Yes, I want to use Dropbox to share my invoice with my client and my client to share the assets from their designer with me. I don't want anybody tracking what websites I visit, articles I read or facebook videos I watch. These are two VERY different definitions of "data", mingling the two is not helpful to discourse.
- Nicksil 5y ago
  >I don't want anybody tracking what websites I visit, articles I read or facebook videos I watch. This whole thing is opt-in, is it not? If you don't want to share your information, you simply do not opt-in.
  - Ensorceled 5y ago
    I'm replying to the person who used Dropbox as an example of "Some people do want others to have their data." in order to clear up their confusion.
- 9wzYQbTYsAIc 5y ago
  > These are two VERY different definitions of "data", mingling the two is not helpful to discourse. Indeed, data has complex nuances that are sometimes missed. Let’s not mingle data intended for advertisement with data intended for social science research.
  - Ensorceled 5y ago
    > Let’s not mingle data intended for advertisement with data intended for social science research. Well those are two different USAGES of the same type of data (tracking). That one is good and the other bad is a different discussion.
    - 9wzYQbTYsAIc 5y ago
      > That one is good and the other bad is a different discussion. In my estimation, that is the current discussion.

xpe 5y ago

I understand this is a sensitive area, and I understand that reasonable people have good reasons to be concerned. But it seems that you are directing your frustrations at Mozilla unfairly. I find this to be a good definition of privacy: > Privacy is the ability of an individual or group to seclude themselves or information about themselves, and thereby express themselves selectively. - Wikipedia From what I've read, Mozilla's Rally gives people the ability to choose what research studies to participate in. I think there is plenty of discussion to be had about what level of control and granularity works best for different people, but I have confidence that Mozilla has both the right incentives and technical capability to contribute meaningfully in this space.

splistud 5y ago
Part of the problem with large internet platforms is that parts of 'my data' is inextricably linked to 'your data', even to the extent that 'my data' only exists on some platforms as data points in 'your data'. In that sense any opt-in choice given to another is yet another privacy breach on their 'contacts' for example. I've seen the opinion expressed that part of the reason society allows this type of surveillance is that so many members of our society don't understand the details or scope. If true, whatever discussions we have about this should include the idea that we're proposing to increase the scope of the problem while researching it.
- xpe 5y ago
  Yes, calling out linkage as a key challenge for data privacy is very important. To dig in one level deeper... Have you looked into privacy-preserving record linkage (PPRL) or similar ideas? (I have not, but I'm interested.) > The process of linking records without revealing any sensitive or confidential information about the entities represented by these records is known as privacy-preserving record linkage (PPRL). > Source: "Privacy-Preserving Record Linkage". > DOI: https://doi.org/10.1007/978-3-319-63962-8_17-1 https://doi.org/10.1007/978-3-319-63962-8_17-1 See also: "A taxonomy of privacy-preserving record linkage techniques" at https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0306437912001470 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03064...
- 5y ago

mikeiz404 5y ago

I see where you are coming from but it is opt-in so I don’t believe that is theft. All scientific research requires data and certain types of research require certain types of data to be useful. I’m personally against ad driven data collection because 1) I don’t think as a whole its outcomes, both first order and second order, are in the long term interests of the viewers or society. However assuming you can trust the data collected and how it is used is only as stated then studies looking to understand online interactions, where more and more of our lives are being lived, with the interest of improving long term outcomes seems like a good thing to me. Of course once the data is out of your hands you loose control over it so it’s good that Mozilla is doing data minimization and aggregation to help reduce the impacts of that. I guess it really boils down to trust, intent, our ability to choose, and transparency which has not been respected in many cases so I very much do understand the skepticism. Here is to hoping this will be different. So far, in my opinion, this looks to be the case. Some of the current studies [1]: - Political and COVID-19 News - Your Time Online and "Doomscrolling" Edit: I read your comment [2] in another thread about the privacy policy, and that is a good point. I sent an email to mozilla asking for clarification and if I get a reply I will add it here. 1: https://rally.mozilla.org/current-studies/ https://rally.mozilla.org/current-studies/ 2: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27633918 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27633918