4 ms·

> EDIT: oh, and because most developers are spineless creatures not being able to stand up for their principles, unlike the author. If everybody really cared ab

> EDIT: oh, and because most developers are spineless creatures not being able to stand up for their principles, unlike the author. If everybody really cared about privacy as they say they do we wouldn't have so many issues. I mean, somebody is implementing all those features. Why holding only developers responsible for non-ethical features? What about the actual decision makers and legislation. By the same logic, if only factory workers decided it's immoral to build weapons, there would be no wars. But those spineless creatures just want bread on the table and don't care about world peace. The only way to avoid these dark patterns is a set of laws that punish them. The reason why we don't have such laws is that we as a society don't know and don't care. It's we all, not only "spineless developers".

squiggleblaz 5y ago
> By the same logic, if only factory workers decided it's immoral to build weapons, there would be no wars. But those spineless creatures just want bread on the table and don't care about world peace. I think the question is, are developers engineers or just programmers? The responsibility of an engineer is to give pushback when it is deserved. As you say, the responsibility is on decision makers. But they care about the politics. They will try to make it look like you're on your own. But if you clearly demonstrate the mood of the company's employees, they will reconsider their position. The result will be compromise not capitulation but it's better for something to be better even if it isn't great yet.
rytor718 5y ago
I don't agree. Responsibility lies with the doer in this case -- the person who types the dark pattern into the code. If my manager tells me to slap my coworker, she's only barely to blame for demanding something dangerous and unethical. I'm the asshole if I do it. There's plenty of blame to go around. But at current, we really do have to do better as a community and refuse these requests far more often than we currently do.

squiggleblaz 5y ago

> By the same logic, if only factory workers decided it's immoral to build weapons, there would be no wars. But those spineless creatures just want bread on the table and don't care about world peace. I think the question is, are developers engineers or just programmers? The responsibility of an engineer is to give pushback when it is deserved. As you say, the responsibility is on decision makers. But they care about the politics. They will try to make it look like you're on your own. But if you clearly demonstrate the mood of the company's employees, they will reconsider their position. The result will be compromise not capitulation but it's better for something to be better even if it isn't great yet.

rytor718 5y ago

I don't agree. Responsibility lies with the doer in this case -- the person who types the dark pattern into the code. If my manager tells me to slap my coworker, she's only barely to blame for demanding something dangerous and unethical. I'm the asshole if I do it. There's plenty of blame to go around. But at current, we really do have to do better as a community and refuse these requests far more often than we currently do.