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Interesting, the 13.3" version could be particularly useful for me. Shame the company's attitude to the GPL (essentially ignoring it, and claiming "unfair anti

Interesting, the 13.3" version could be particularly useful for me. Shame the company's attitude to the GPL (essentially ignoring it, and claiming "unfair anti-China sentiment" & closing off forums when people call them out on that) precludes me from considering any of their products currently.

someperson 5y ago
> Shame the company's attitude to the GPL (essentially ignoring it, and claiming "unfair anti-China sentiment" & closing off forums when people call them out on that) precludes me from considering any of their products currently. Wow you're right: https://www.reddit.com/r/Onyx_Boox/comments/hsn7kx/onyx_using_recent_antichina_movement_as_excuse_to/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Onyx_Boox/comments/hsn7kx/onyx_usin...
cunidev 5y ago
Also, E-ink as a company in general is apparently quite nasty: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26143779 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26143779
- black_puppydog 5y ago
  Oh, thanks for pointing to that. In that thread I found out about clearInk, something of a competitor; seems like an old-style reflective color LCD with long battery life. I'd love to see these in devices like the AlphaSmart Neo2
- ThrowawayR2 5y ago
  I've seen that post repeated before but there's little evidence to corroborate it. Corporate acquisitions have to be be announced (somebody correct me if I'm wrong) and there's only one acquisition that I've seen news of E-ink making. Moreover, if "forget about getting any detailed datasheets about how to correctly drive their displays to get sharp images" were true, then this product and Dasung's similar product wouldn't even exist.
- robinsoh 5y ago
  > Also, E-ink as a company in general is apparently quite nasty I work in the display industry. I haven't seen them behave in a nasty way. If you look at that comment you linked to, I questioned it and didn't get a reply. So I'm suspicious. I even saw a news article use that very same comment as a citation which is ridiculous. Then now you cite the same unsubstantiated comment as well which is worrying. I do see a lot of disgruntled hobbyists here on HN who seem to hate E-Ink, Liquavista and other new display tech manufacturers. I gather there's a feeling among these hobbyists that somehow manufacturers should be lining up to give them samples and assist them in their startup ideas. That's an unreasonable expectation.
  - cunidev 5y ago
    You are actually right, there is no large evidence of particular lawsuits (outside some maybe justified ones, https://the-digital-reader.com/2015/03/02/e-ink-loses-two-year-old-patent-lawsuit-over-competing-screen-tech/ https://the-digital-reader.com/2015/03/02/e-ink-loses-two-ye... etc.)
rchaud 5y ago
As a consumer, I can't say I care. Onyx may be screwing over those who absolutely must have access to their Linux kernel. However in my case, they are the only vendor that isn't trying to lock you into their ecosystem. - Any EMR stylus will work on their Note devices. - They run full Android, so I don't need an over-engineered Dropbox/GDrive integration to get my files. Syncthing Fork on F-Droid does wireless sync from my laptop without a cloud-based middleman. - I can attach a BT keyboard and do my journaling on an eyestrain-free screen. Amazon would tell me to buy a Kindle Fire if I described that use case to them. I bought the Note Air over the Kobo Elipsa, even though it was more expensive, and didn't have domestic warranty support like the Kobo would. Why? Because Kobo only has Dropbox and Pocket integration, and supports only their own bookstore for DRM'd titles. If you have purchases saved to your Kindle account, you are SOL.
- dspillett 5y ago
  > As a consumer, I can't say I care. As a consumer who would if possible prefer not to support companies who take what they want, however they want, for their commercial gain and to hell with the wishes (and legal stance) of the creators that says they shouldn't, I gather my priorities differ from yours. Of course if those features truly are must haves for your work/life (and they aren't all available in one product elsewhere which I don't think they are), or you simply didn't know about these matters before purchasing, then the equation is quite different. If you have no practical other choice then you have no practical choice. I don't need the featureset enough to ignore my objection to their behaviour with respect to the kernel's licence (and possibly the licences of other components their devices use). Until a competitor offers the same/better or they change their tune, I can live without.
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    It's not in a vacuum. The other alternatives are either the same or fully closed.
    - dspillett 5y ago
      > The other alternatives are either the same Or non-existent of course, as the previous poster suggests and I stated I find quite believable. > The other alternatives are either the same Which other alternatives are modifying GPL covered code but refusing to uphold their requirements under the license? Or the same for another license? > or fully closed. Fully closed but correctly licensed (their own work and/or correctly licensed software from other sources) is preferable to taking OSS and breaching the licenses. It is at least more honest.
gamblor956 5y ago
Onyx uses Android, which is covered by the GPL and Apache licenses. They made changes that were subject to the Apache license, but not the GPL license. The linux part of the Onyx OS is unmodified. They don't comply with the GPL requirement to redistribute the linux binaries...because you can download them everywhere. Yes, this is a violation of the Linux license. Good luck with getting a court to impose any sanctions for it. And the Apache license doesn't require them to share proprietary code, so they don't share their customizations to Android. It's too bad people go after them for minor license violations without actually understanding how the licenses work.
- NoahKAndrews 5y ago
  I'm certain that they're not using the mainline Linux kernel, so this is untrue.
- dspillett 5y ago
  If it is a simple misunderstanding like that then why don't the company put up a page explaining the matters and quote it when asked about licensing in forums, instead of closing said forums in a little hissy fit?
  - gamblor956 5y ago
    They did, in the forums, in that thread. People ignored it and escalating the false claims about the license violations. When one of the forum posters tried to dox the community manager, they shut down the forum. Being reasonable only works with reasonable people. By and large, the people who rail against things they don't understand are not reasonable people.
    - dspillett 5y ago
      > They did, in the forums But nowhere in more official documentation? > People ignored it Ignored it, or just dismissed it because they have reason to think it is not possible to run the kernel and/or other parts on that hardware without modifications that would be covered by the GPL? > one of the forum posters tried to dox the community manager That is definitely not acceptable behaviour, granted. Though it isn't a reason they stated for closing the forum.
randyrand 5y ago
What custom code do they need?
- dspillett 5y ago
  We don't know for sure. They won't release it so we can see. If there was none at all, they could just say "there is none" instead of any of this argument (many might not believe them if they said that, of course, but they aren't even saying it so that point is entirely moot). Certainly I expect code to optimise things for the specifics of the hardware. That would be useful to have if they stop supporting it and something needs fixing after that point in time (for security reasons for instance) perhaps the hardware can still be more than a fancy brick. That is in part where the GPL came from in the first place - RMS being irritated by a locked-down printer he wanted to add some utility to.

someperson 5y ago

> Shame the company's attitude to the GPL (essentially ignoring it, and claiming "unfair anti-China sentiment" & closing off forums when people call them out on that) precludes me from considering any of their products currently. Wow you're right: https://www.reddit.com/r/Onyx_Boox/comments/hsn7kx/onyx_using_recent_antichina_movement_as_excuse_to/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Onyx_Boox/comments/hsn7kx/onyx_usin...

cunidev 5y ago

Also, E-ink as a company in general is apparently quite nasty: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26143779 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26143779

black_puppydog 5y ago
Oh, thanks for pointing to that. In that thread I found out about clearInk, something of a competitor; seems like an old-style reflective color LCD with long battery life. I'd love to see these in devices like the AlphaSmart Neo2
ThrowawayR2 5y ago
I've seen that post repeated before but there's little evidence to corroborate it. Corporate acquisitions have to be be announced (somebody correct me if I'm wrong) and there's only one acquisition that I've seen news of E-ink making. Moreover, if "forget about getting any detailed datasheets about how to correctly drive their displays to get sharp images" were true, then this product and Dasung's similar product wouldn't even exist.
robinsoh 5y ago
> Also, E-ink as a company in general is apparently quite nasty I work in the display industry. I haven't seen them behave in a nasty way. If you look at that comment you linked to, I questioned it and didn't get a reply. So I'm suspicious. I even saw a news article use that very same comment as a citation which is ridiculous. Then now you cite the same unsubstantiated comment as well which is worrying. I do see a lot of disgruntled hobbyists here on HN who seem to hate E-Ink, Liquavista and other new display tech manufacturers. I gather there's a feeling among these hobbyists that somehow manufacturers should be lining up to give them samples and assist them in their startup ideas. That's an unreasonable expectation.
- cunidev 5y ago
  You are actually right, there is no large evidence of particular lawsuits (outside some maybe justified ones, https://the-digital-reader.com/2015/03/02/e-ink-loses-two-year-old-patent-lawsuit-over-competing-screen-tech/ https://the-digital-reader.com/2015/03/02/e-ink-loses-two-ye... etc.)

rchaud 5y ago

As a consumer, I can't say I care. Onyx may be screwing over those who absolutely must have access to their Linux kernel. However in my case, they are the only vendor that isn't trying to lock you into their ecosystem. - Any EMR stylus will work on their Note devices. - They run full Android, so I don't need an over-engineered Dropbox/GDrive integration to get my files. Syncthing Fork on F-Droid does wireless sync from my laptop without a cloud-based middleman. - I can attach a BT keyboard and do my journaling on an eyestrain-free screen. Amazon would tell me to buy a Kindle Fire if I described that use case to them. I bought the Note Air over the Kobo Elipsa, even though it was more expensive, and didn't have domestic warranty support like the Kobo would. Why? Because Kobo only has Dropbox and Pocket integration, and supports only their own bookstore for DRM'd titles. If you have purchases saved to your Kindle account, you are SOL.

dspillett 5y ago
> As a consumer, I can't say I care. As a consumer who would if possible prefer not to support companies who take what they want, however they want, for their commercial gain and to hell with the wishes (and legal stance) of the creators that says they shouldn't, I gather my priorities differ from yours. Of course if those features truly are must haves for your work/life (and they aren't all available in one product elsewhere which I don't think they are), or you simply didn't know about these matters before purchasing, then the equation is quite different. If you have no practical other choice then you have no practical choice. I don't need the featureset enough to ignore my objection to their behaviour with respect to the kernel's licence (and possibly the licences of other components their devices use). Until a competitor offers the same/better or they change their tune, I can live without.
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  It's not in a vacuum. The other alternatives are either the same or fully closed.
  - dspillett 5y ago
    > The other alternatives are either the same Or non-existent of course, as the previous poster suggests and I stated I find quite believable. > The other alternatives are either the same Which other alternatives are modifying GPL covered code but refusing to uphold their requirements under the license? Or the same for another license? > or fully closed. Fully closed but correctly licensed (their own work and/or correctly licensed software from other sources) is preferable to taking OSS and breaching the licenses. It is at least more honest.

gamblor956 5y ago

Onyx uses Android, which is covered by the GPL and Apache licenses. They made changes that were subject to the Apache license, but not the GPL license. The linux part of the Onyx OS is unmodified. They don't comply with the GPL requirement to redistribute the linux binaries...because you can download them everywhere. Yes, this is a violation of the Linux license. Good luck with getting a court to impose any sanctions for it. And the Apache license doesn't require them to share proprietary code, so they don't share their customizations to Android. It's too bad people go after them for minor license violations without actually understanding how the licenses work.

NoahKAndrews 5y ago
I'm certain that they're not using the mainline Linux kernel, so this is untrue.
dspillett 5y ago
If it is a simple misunderstanding like that then why don't the company put up a page explaining the matters and quote it when asked about licensing in forums, instead of closing said forums in a little hissy fit?
- gamblor956 5y ago
  They did, in the forums, in that thread. People ignored it and escalating the false claims about the license violations. When one of the forum posters tried to dox the community manager, they shut down the forum. Being reasonable only works with reasonable people. By and large, the people who rail against things they don't understand are not reasonable people.
  - dspillett 5y ago
    > They did, in the forums But nowhere in more official documentation? > People ignored it Ignored it, or just dismissed it because they have reason to think it is not possible to run the kernel and/or other parts on that hardware without modifications that would be covered by the GPL? > one of the forum posters tried to dox the community manager That is definitely not acceptable behaviour, granted. Though it isn't a reason they stated for closing the forum.

randyrand 5y ago

What custom code do they need?

dspillett 5y ago
We don't know for sure. They won't release it so we can see. If there was none at all, they could just say "there is none" instead of any of this argument (many might not believe them if they said that, of course, but they aren't even saying it so that point is entirely moot). Certainly I expect code to optimise things for the specifics of the hardware. That would be useful to have if they stop supporting it and something needs fixing after that point in time (for security reasons for instance) perhaps the hardware can still be more than a fancy brick. That is in part where the GPL came from in the first place - RMS being irritated by a locked-down printer he wanted to add some utility to.