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Many years ago I was asked about adding a feature to our website, which was a shopping portal for eyeglasses, that would bring up a popup when the user tried to

Many years ago I was asked about adding a feature to our website, which was a shopping portal for eyeglasses, that would bring up a popup when the user tried to leave the site. I immediately said I would not do it. I didn't get let go but the look the manager gave me was one of shocked disbelief, I imagine it was strike one. I quit not long after. The manager was from a big corporation (Luxottica) that had bought us recently. It seems relatively normal that the kind of people who achieve positions of power at large companies just have no respect for other humans. It makes me sad sometimes.

scotcha1 5y ago
there's probably a lot more context, but this is a pretty common marketing feature some examples: https://github.com/carlsednaoui/ouibounce https://github.com/carlsednaoui/ouibounce https://www.hubspot.com/products/marketing/exit-intent https://www.hubspot.com/products/marketing/exit-intent i like how this page describes them more as 'needy' than 'dark', since dark seems to imply immoral https://www.nngroup.com/articles/needy-design-patterns/ https://www.nngroup.com/articles/needy-design-patterns/
- yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
  I was curious how that works, so I clicked into the ouibounce repo and read the README. I still don't get how it works, but I enjoyed how they flirt with self awareness: > it's very easy to create something spammy-looking. ...and then they list "good" uses that are... all spammy.
  - nitrogen 5y ago
    I still don't get how it works These actions can be used to infer possible intent to leave: scroll up (to reveal address bar on mobile), move mouse toward top of viewport (to move mouse toward address bar), swipe down (to reveal address bar on mobile), loss of UI focus, probably others. I hate these patterns, and they are 100% appropriately described as dark. I and the other devs spent months at one place arguing with a PM about how janky and broken the third-party intent-to-leave detector they injected using Google Tag Manager without dev involvement made our app feel. (GTM was the product that convinced me Google gave up on not being evil)
    - yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
      Okay, so it's all indirect? I usually just ctrl-w, and beyond the browser native dialog that sites can use to ask if you want to confirm saving your work or something, I wasn't aware of any way to intercept that or do anything about it.
      - claudiulodro 5y ago
        The most common way those exit-intent popups work is to check for when the users' mouse leaves the viewport e.g. https://stackoverflow.com/questions/923299/how-can-i-detect-when-the-mouse-leaves-the-window https://stackoverflow.com/questions/923299/how-can-i-detect-...
- partiallypro 5y ago
  Left out of this post is a form or CTA that follows me on scroll, it doesn't make me feel like it's easier to find the form, it makes me feel like I'm being hounded to give my information.
s_severus 5y ago
I work in e-commerce and this kind of thing is totally standard. You get salespeople trying to sell you this and much worse regularly. I was once pitched the exact dark pattern as in the OP - covert email collection. I was gobsmacked. I wrote about it at the time thus: > Towards the end of the slide deck, Dom excitedly explained how if a user enters an email address in any form field anywhere on the website, then regardless of whether the form is submitted, that email address will be captured by IntegriMart and paired up with a browser fingerprint for that user. This, presumably, allows us to “continue to build a dialogue” with that user. Full story for those interested: https://www.michaelbromley.co.uk/blog/the-covert-opt-in/ https://www.michaelbromley.co.uk/blog/the-covert-opt-in/
mytailorisrich 5y ago
Not to play devil's advocate here, but as an employee if you refuse to do something your manager tells you to do that is both within your job description and not illegal then you are in the wrong in terms of your duties as an employee. The feature you describe is annoying (I think it's fair to say that everyone hates these pop-ups) but rather innocuous and certainly not unlawful so there isn't any reasonable ground to refuse to do it if you're employed as a web dev. That's the nature of employed work.
- Sodman 5y ago
  Conversely, if you work for a company that lists it's "values" as something like "Being customer-focused", it's easy to find ground upon which to push back on things that go against the company's supposed values. Software engineering is largely think-work. Some of it is creatively coming up with ways to solve novel technical problems, but an often understated part is thinking about how your implementations will affect your users, and optimizing for solving your users problems.
  - mytailorisrich 5y ago
    That's all nice but quite irrelevant to my previous comment's point.
    - ticviking 5y ago
      Quite the opposite. If a middle manager tells you to do something you think harms the company or it's customers and you don't push back as a knowledge worker you're not doing your job. Ultimately you may need to comply if the decision is made, but they literally hire us for our judgement and ability to work independently for the companies objectives.
      - mytailorisrich 5y ago
        > Ultimately you may need to comply if the decision is made Yes, you 'need' to comply because you're an employee. That's all there is to it and I'm very surprised by the emotional reactions to my simple statement of fact. It's odd. A software dev is not hired for their judgement on company strategy or marketing. It's never a good idea to tell others how to do their jobs. I would also say that pushing back and refusing are two very different things. If you think something is not good for the company you may say it constructively (though be careful). In the end, "disagree and commit" or quit are the two professional options.

scotcha1 5y ago

there's probably a lot more context, but this is a pretty common marketing feature some examples: https://github.com/carlsednaoui/ouibounce https://github.com/carlsednaoui/ouibounce https://www.hubspot.com/products/marketing/exit-intent https://www.hubspot.com/products/marketing/exit-intent i like how this page describes them more as 'needy' than 'dark', since dark seems to imply immoral https://www.nngroup.com/articles/needy-design-patterns/ https://www.nngroup.com/articles/needy-design-patterns/

yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
I was curious how that works, so I clicked into the ouibounce repo and read the README. I still don't get how it works, but I enjoyed how they flirt with self awareness: > it's very easy to create something spammy-looking. ...and then they list "good" uses that are... all spammy.
- nitrogen 5y ago
  I still don't get how it works These actions can be used to infer possible intent to leave: scroll up (to reveal address bar on mobile), move mouse toward top of viewport (to move mouse toward address bar), swipe down (to reveal address bar on mobile), loss of UI focus, probably others. I hate these patterns, and they are 100% appropriately described as dark. I and the other devs spent months at one place arguing with a PM about how janky and broken the third-party intent-to-leave detector they injected using Google Tag Manager without dev involvement made our app feel. (GTM was the product that convinced me Google gave up on not being evil)
  - yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
    Okay, so it's all indirect? I usually just ctrl-w, and beyond the browser native dialog that sites can use to ask if you want to confirm saving your work or something, I wasn't aware of any way to intercept that or do anything about it.
    - claudiulodro 5y ago
      The most common way those exit-intent popups work is to check for when the users' mouse leaves the viewport e.g. https://stackoverflow.com/questions/923299/how-can-i-detect-when-the-mouse-leaves-the-window https://stackoverflow.com/questions/923299/how-can-i-detect-...
partiallypro 5y ago
Left out of this post is a form or CTA that follows me on scroll, it doesn't make me feel like it's easier to find the form, it makes me feel like I'm being hounded to give my information.

s_severus 5y ago

I work in e-commerce and this kind of thing is totally standard. You get salespeople trying to sell you this and much worse regularly. I was once pitched the exact dark pattern as in the OP - covert email collection. I was gobsmacked. I wrote about it at the time thus: > Towards the end of the slide deck, Dom excitedly explained how if a user enters an email address in any form field anywhere on the website, then regardless of whether the form is submitted, that email address will be captured by IntegriMart and paired up with a browser fingerprint for that user. This, presumably, allows us to “continue to build a dialogue” with that user. Full story for those interested: https://www.michaelbromley.co.uk/blog/the-covert-opt-in/ https://www.michaelbromley.co.uk/blog/the-covert-opt-in/

mytailorisrich 5y ago

Not to play devil's advocate here, but as an employee if you refuse to do something your manager tells you to do that is both within your job description and not illegal then you are in the wrong in terms of your duties as an employee. The feature you describe is annoying (I think it's fair to say that everyone hates these pop-ups) but rather innocuous and certainly not unlawful so there isn't any reasonable ground to refuse to do it if you're employed as a web dev. That's the nature of employed work.

Sodman 5y ago
Conversely, if you work for a company that lists it's "values" as something like "Being customer-focused", it's easy to find ground upon which to push back on things that go against the company's supposed values. Software engineering is largely think-work. Some of it is creatively coming up with ways to solve novel technical problems, but an often understated part is thinking about how your implementations will affect your users, and optimizing for solving your users problems.
- mytailorisrich 5y ago
  That's all nice but quite irrelevant to my previous comment's point.
  - ticviking 5y ago
    Quite the opposite. If a middle manager tells you to do something you think harms the company or it's customers and you don't push back as a knowledge worker you're not doing your job. Ultimately you may need to comply if the decision is made, but they literally hire us for our judgement and ability to work independently for the companies objectives.
    - mytailorisrich 5y ago
      > Ultimately you may need to comply if the decision is made Yes, you 'need' to comply because you're an employee. That's all there is to it and I'm very surprised by the emotional reactions to my simple statement of fact. It's odd. A software dev is not hired for their judgement on company strategy or marketing. It's never a good idea to tell others how to do their jobs. I would also say that pushing back and refusing are two very different things. If you think something is not good for the company you may say it constructively (though be careful). In the end, "disagree and commit" or quit are the two professional options.