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I wouldn't call over aggressive marketing a dark pattern. As with the newsletter pop-ups, they aren't shady or underhanded or misleading or coercive, they're ju

I wouldn't call over aggressive marketing a dark pattern. As with the newsletter pop-ups, they aren't shady or underhanded or misleading or coercive, they're just in your face. I often find them obnoxious and repulsive and they drive me away from a site, but they're in the light, out in the open, not pretending to be something they aren't. I think there is a fairly bright line in the sand for defining a dark pattern, and the line is between hiding and being open, between being misleading and straightforward, between trying to force someone to do something and seducing them with plain intentions. The later behavior can still really suck, without being dark.

ehnto 5y ago
I disagree, simply. There's so many novel UX patterns in websites and apps, it's impossible that you've got a clear idea of what is or isn't a dark pattern in every circumstance. Uber Eats used to have a "$0" option for tipping, but removed it, it's no longer clear if you're going to be giving a tip or not, but if you don't click anything you don't actually give a tip. Is that a dark pattern? I think so, because the UX makes it seem like you have to select something, and that no isn't an option. But it's not hard to argue in the negative, since doing nothing will not take money from you.
- whynaut 5y ago
  You seem to give a pretty good reason why it's a dark pattern, and a pretty flimsy one for why it's not. I think it's not as ambiguous as you say.
  - ehnto 5y ago
    I didn't realize this was going to be such a controversial take. It's possible you think there's a clear definition because you haven't seen examples of what some industries think is ethical. I'm trying to pick relatable examples but clearly not doing a great job. Again, I tend not to think these things are ethical, but I'm not the ethics police, so the fact that one person thinks it's ethical and one person does not means it must be blurry. I feel pretty strongly that tracking cookies are evil, but the entire ad-tech industry did not think that was a dark-pattern. I feel pretty strongly that GDPR "accept all or leave site" dialogs are a dark pattern, but the EU is happy with that implementation. I would also love to point out that "dark-pattern" is still a blossoming terminology, there's no definitive body of law or ethics that describes what is and isn't a dark pattern.
    - t0mas88 5y ago
      The "accept all or leave" has recently been ruled illegal because the law requires "free and informed consent". Refusing service without consent isn't a free choice to the user. Similar for Google that went the "you can disable cookies in your browser" way, I doubt that will survive a lawsuit in the coming years.

ehnto 5y ago

I disagree, simply. There's so many novel UX patterns in websites and apps, it's impossible that you've got a clear idea of what is or isn't a dark pattern in every circumstance. Uber Eats used to have a "$0" option for tipping, but removed it, it's no longer clear if you're going to be giving a tip or not, but if you don't click anything you don't actually give a tip. Is that a dark pattern? I think so, because the UX makes it seem like you have to select something, and that no isn't an option. But it's not hard to argue in the negative, since doing nothing will not take money from you.

whynaut 5y ago
You seem to give a pretty good reason why it's a dark pattern, and a pretty flimsy one for why it's not. I think it's not as ambiguous as you say.
- ehnto 5y ago
  I didn't realize this was going to be such a controversial take. It's possible you think there's a clear definition because you haven't seen examples of what some industries think is ethical. I'm trying to pick relatable examples but clearly not doing a great job. Again, I tend not to think these things are ethical, but I'm not the ethics police, so the fact that one person thinks it's ethical and one person does not means it must be blurry. I feel pretty strongly that tracking cookies are evil, but the entire ad-tech industry did not think that was a dark-pattern. I feel pretty strongly that GDPR "accept all or leave site" dialogs are a dark pattern, but the EU is happy with that implementation. I would also love to point out that "dark-pattern" is still a blossoming terminology, there's no definitive body of law or ethics that describes what is and isn't a dark pattern.
  - t0mas88 5y ago
    The "accept all or leave" has recently been ruled illegal because the law requires "free and informed consent". Refusing service without consent isn't a free choice to the user. Similar for Google that went the "you can disable cookies in your browser" way, I doubt that will survive a lawsuit in the coming years.