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I am trying to get rid of any smart devices in my life. I need less things connected to the internet not more. I bought Bruce Shneier's "Click Here to Kill Ever

I am trying to get rid of any smart devices in my life. I need less things connected to the internet not more. I bought Bruce Shneier's "Click Here to Kill Everybody, and that just convinced me even more. Software is a weak point, and I'd rather have the least amount possible in my "mission critical" everyday life gadgets. I want single-purpose, purpose built devices that do that one thing very well, without connecting to the internet for a whole host of secondary, and mostly useless or even harmful surveillance, reasons.

bryanrasmussen 5y ago
as most products become connected you will have to pay a premium for products that are not - especially as companies try to make profits from tracking (as in SmartTvs). People who are not rich enough to buy everything single purpose will have to pick and choose.
- pope_meat 5y ago
  Personally I hope ecological collapse nips this black mirror future were tumbling in to. Things feel bleak.
  - bingu 5y ago
    Ecological collapse will likely tumble us more into a black mirror future as populations become increasingly dependent on technology to fulfill their needs.
  - majewsky 5y ago
    If anything, ecological collapse might hasten this future. Just last week, there was this news about the Texas power company that remotely raised temperatures on people's thermostats to save power and avoid brownouts/blackouts. This predictably caused public outrage as people discovered what was in the fine print that they signed without reading, but from the perspective of the power company, everything worked as intended, so I absolutely expect to push these remote-controllable thermostats even harder moving forward.
    - rswail 5y ago
      Managing an integrated grid using household solar and battery as part of the supply management is one thing. Adjusting people's usage for demand management is another. They need to be separated and managed differently. Instead of push adjusting HVAC for demand, they could use proper price signals with the appropriate local automation at the household that can be over-ridden by the consumer.
      - generj 5y ago
        I agree price signals and local automation are the way to go. I would love to have my HVAC run according to the true cost of electricity, also minimizing CO2 emissions. BUT giving the grid operators emergency control over demand is a useful tool when the grid is close to failure. Too many people will just hit override unless the price signals are very high. When grid operators know people will die if their system goes down and it’s on the brink, people choosing to be 4 degrees cooler is such an immoral choice I’m OK removing that choice from them. Also very helpful to reduce shocks to the system after any outages by temporarily limiting HVAC restarts.
        BlueTemplar 5y ago
        > Too many people will just hit override unless the price signals are very high. But that's the point of an energy market, it will adapt the price signal to the supply and the demand. People will override it without thinking only the first time. The second time they will remember the humongous bill they got because of that and will think twice.
    - bryanrasmussen 5y ago
      >remotely raised temperatures on people's thermostats to save power why would raising temperatures save power? probably a silly question but I'm confused.
      - detaro 5y ago
        because air conditioning runs less.
  - blowski 5y ago
    Said every generation ever.
- cm2187 5y ago
  Tracking and ads. Now that your TV menus have ads embedded, it’s a small leap from there to have to watch a commercial before you can start your washing machine
  - hulitu 5y ago
    And a small leap from there to start your vibrating ring.
    - uni_rule 5y ago
      This prostate stimulation was bought to you by Geico
- signal11 5y ago
  At the very least, people should be able to make an informed choice about ads & tracking. The (imperfect) analogy would be e.g., a Kindle which is a bit cheaper if you buy one that shows ads on the lock-screen. Regulation also helps, e.g., in the UK LG's smart TVs have a toggle to enable content fingerprinting, and it's off by default.
- mark_l_watson 5y ago
  If you can even get non-Smart TVs. Last month I gave our nice SmartTV to a friend and bought low quality non-Smart TV from Walmart for $199. Really low quality but running it with just a new Apple TV box is a UI delight. My wife is unhappy with the downgrade, but I love it - much more private, no unwanted SmartTV apps and having the UI driven in ways I didn't like, being forced to have the old device on the Internet, etc.
fooblat 5y ago
I'm with you on this one. I refuse to buy any appliance that requires a connection to the internet. I look for things that are straightforward to repair and maintain.
- myself248 5y ago
  Agreed, but the My Book doesn't require a connection. It can use it, optionally, but I don't think it would run afoul of this prepurchase test. Now, as for how they ended up configured to be accessible from the internet, I'm not sure. Is that a user-facing option? Is it on by default? Did WD have a responsibility to disable the feature when they stopped maintaining it?
  - BlueTemplar 5y ago
    Plenty of IoThings don't "require a connection", yet end up on the Internet anyway, which is perhaps worse. That's one of the reasons why the transition to IPv6 is good : IoT directly connected to the Internet without any NAT is going to be the default assumption.
8fingerlouie 5y ago
I never jumped on the “everything IoT” bandwagon, but recently I’ve relented a bit. I own/use exactly 4 “IoT technologies”. I have smart radiator thermostats that turn on/off the heat based on family presence, as well as “predict” the heating needs based on weather forecast, sunshine hours, etc. I have a heat pump in my vacation house that is remote controlled by the internet. Not strictly needed, but very convenient in the winter. To keep an eye on my vacation house I also have a camera that uses HomeKit Secure Video. Requires no infrastructure on my end except network. And finally, like a lot of people I have Hue. I control it all through HomeKit. I also keep everything on a couple of IoT VLANs, one for “trusted” devices (AirPlay, media, PlayStation, etc), and one for “everything else” with client isolation, filtered dns, IDS/IPS. No upnp/nat-pmp, no tunneling (if detectable), and no other dns servers but mine (until dns over https becomes a thing with IoT) In the future however it might become more or less impossible to avoid. Our neighbors recently purchased a new oven, which of course comes with internet connectivity. Their new washing machine also has internet connectivity. In the very near future everything will be connected under the pretense of providing useful feature, when in reality it’s all about pushing adds and gathering telemetry data.
- wycy 5y ago
  How could an oven or washing machine possibly be useful remotely?! I'm a fan of connectivity, but that just seems absurd for those appliances.
  - elkos 5y ago
    Can connect with Google Home or Alexa or Siri and do phonetic commands like start program or stuff like that I guess. I'm a new dad and when we both are busy with work, chores and the baby I find myself wishing I had IoT devices to automate a couple of stuff home.
  - bcrosby95 5y ago
    Being able to remotely preheat my oven could be useful. But not enough to justify the risk of someone else remotely preheating my oven.

bryanrasmussen 5y ago

as most products become connected you will have to pay a premium for products that are not - especially as companies try to make profits from tracking (as in SmartTvs). People who are not rich enough to buy everything single purpose will have to pick and choose.

pope_meat 5y ago
Personally I hope ecological collapse nips this black mirror future were tumbling in to. Things feel bleak.
- bingu 5y ago
  Ecological collapse will likely tumble us more into a black mirror future as populations become increasingly dependent on technology to fulfill their needs.
- majewsky 5y ago
  If anything, ecological collapse might hasten this future. Just last week, there was this news about the Texas power company that remotely raised temperatures on people's thermostats to save power and avoid brownouts/blackouts. This predictably caused public outrage as people discovered what was in the fine print that they signed without reading, but from the perspective of the power company, everything worked as intended, so I absolutely expect to push these remote-controllable thermostats even harder moving forward.
  - rswail 5y ago
    Managing an integrated grid using household solar and battery as part of the supply management is one thing. Adjusting people's usage for demand management is another. They need to be separated and managed differently. Instead of push adjusting HVAC for demand, they could use proper price signals with the appropriate local automation at the household that can be over-ridden by the consumer.
    - generj 5y ago
      I agree price signals and local automation are the way to go. I would love to have my HVAC run according to the true cost of electricity, also minimizing CO2 emissions. BUT giving the grid operators emergency control over demand is a useful tool when the grid is close to failure. Too many people will just hit override unless the price signals are very high. When grid operators know people will die if their system goes down and it’s on the brink, people choosing to be 4 degrees cooler is such an immoral choice I’m OK removing that choice from them. Also very helpful to reduce shocks to the system after any outages by temporarily limiting HVAC restarts.
      - BlueTemplar 5y ago
        > Too many people will just hit override unless the price signals are very high. But that's the point of an energy market, it will adapt the price signal to the supply and the demand. People will override it without thinking only the first time. The second time they will remember the humongous bill they got because of that and will think twice.
  - bryanrasmussen 5y ago
    >remotely raised temperatures on people's thermostats to save power why would raising temperatures save power? probably a silly question but I'm confused.
    - detaro 5y ago
      because air conditioning runs less.
- blowski 5y ago
  Said every generation ever.
cm2187 5y ago
Tracking and ads. Now that your TV menus have ads embedded, it’s a small leap from there to have to watch a commercial before you can start your washing machine
- hulitu 5y ago
  And a small leap from there to start your vibrating ring.
  - uni_rule 5y ago
    This prostate stimulation was bought to you by Geico
signal11 5y ago
At the very least, people should be able to make an informed choice about ads & tracking. The (imperfect) analogy would be e.g., a Kindle which is a bit cheaper if you buy one that shows ads on the lock-screen. Regulation also helps, e.g., in the UK LG's smart TVs have a toggle to enable content fingerprinting, and it's off by default.
mark_l_watson 5y ago
If you can even get non-Smart TVs. Last month I gave our nice SmartTV to a friend and bought low quality non-Smart TV from Walmart for $199. Really low quality but running it with just a new Apple TV box is a UI delight. My wife is unhappy with the downgrade, but I love it - much more private, no unwanted SmartTV apps and having the UI driven in ways I didn't like, being forced to have the old device on the Internet, etc.

fooblat 5y ago

I'm with you on this one. I refuse to buy any appliance that requires a connection to the internet. I look for things that are straightforward to repair and maintain.

myself248 5y ago
Agreed, but the My Book doesn't require a connection. It can use it, optionally, but I don't think it would run afoul of this prepurchase test. Now, as for how they ended up configured to be accessible from the internet, I'm not sure. Is that a user-facing option? Is it on by default? Did WD have a responsibility to disable the feature when they stopped maintaining it?
- BlueTemplar 5y ago
  Plenty of IoThings don't "require a connection", yet end up on the Internet anyway, which is perhaps worse. That's one of the reasons why the transition to IPv6 is good : IoT directly connected to the Internet without any NAT is going to be the default assumption.

8fingerlouie 5y ago

I never jumped on the “everything IoT” bandwagon, but recently I’ve relented a bit. I own/use exactly 4 “IoT technologies”. I have smart radiator thermostats that turn on/off the heat based on family presence, as well as “predict” the heating needs based on weather forecast, sunshine hours, etc. I have a heat pump in my vacation house that is remote controlled by the internet. Not strictly needed, but very convenient in the winter. To keep an eye on my vacation house I also have a camera that uses HomeKit Secure Video. Requires no infrastructure on my end except network. And finally, like a lot of people I have Hue. I control it all through HomeKit. I also keep everything on a couple of IoT VLANs, one for “trusted” devices (AirPlay, media, PlayStation, etc), and one for “everything else” with client isolation, filtered dns, IDS/IPS. No upnp/nat-pmp, no tunneling (if detectable), and no other dns servers but mine (until dns over https becomes a thing with IoT) In the future however it might become more or less impossible to avoid. Our neighbors recently purchased a new oven, which of course comes with internet connectivity. Their new washing machine also has internet connectivity. In the very near future everything will be connected under the pretense of providing useful feature, when in reality it’s all about pushing adds and gathering telemetry data.

wycy 5y ago
How could an oven or washing machine possibly be useful remotely?! I'm a fan of connectivity, but that just seems absurd for those appliances.
- elkos 5y ago
  Can connect with Google Home or Alexa or Siri and do phonetic commands like start program or stuff like that I guess. I'm a new dad and when we both are busy with work, chores and the baby I find myself wishing I had IoT devices to automate a couple of stuff home.
- bcrosby95 5y ago
  Being able to remotely preheat my oven could be useful. But not enough to justify the risk of someone else remotely preheating my oven.