3 ms·

> Yes, that includes cloud sync (Dropbox/OneDrive/GDrive/etc) that propagates changes automatically Dropbox allows you to roll back changes and undelete files

by acchow 5y ago

> Yes, that includes cloud sync (Dropbox/OneDrive/GDrive/etc) that propagates changes automatically Dropbox allows you to roll back changes and undelete files https://www.dropbox.com/features/cloud-storage/file-recovery-and-history https://www.dropbox.com/features/cloud-storage/file-recovery...

romwell 5y ago
...if you pay for it, and if your account doesn't get hacked, and if nothing goes wrong on Dropbox's side, and... That's to say, Dropbox is not a backup.
- munk-a 5y ago
  I don't know if this has gone to court yet - but I'd assume that if Dropbox does a thing to delete a bunch of data that causes you a great loss of value when you're paying them specifically to store a bunch of data - then there would be enough of an implied contract in place that you could extract a bunch of pain from them regardless of what their TOS tries to say. The law is complicated and the details are extremely important - but intent is a pretty big factor. Also - I'd strongly advise someone who is deciding between buying an external hard drive or using a third party for backup to use the third party. There are definitely risks that remain, but their SLA is likely going to end up being a lot stronger than your hard drive's reliability.
  - cma 5y ago
    Then people irresponsibly storing single copies of critical data on Dropbox raise the cost for more responsible users, because upon loss Dropbox has to pay out the high value of the loss to the irresponsible user, but pay next to nothing to the reponsible users, who already have multiple backups or store less critical data. It should at least be a tiered offering with different liability caps.
  - rgbrenner 5y ago
    That has gone to court. They're using the same limitation of liability (including data loss), as-is clause, and waiver of warranties found in every software license. It's entirely enforceable. Read the TOS. You're not getting anything from them if they delete your data.
  - romwell 5y ago
    I am very sorry to break it to you, but there is no Santa, and you'll be SOL if Dropbox's SLA hits a SNAFU. Also, from another comment in this thread: >I've "lost" (had to restore from personal backup drives) data from Dropbox due to an error made by their support staff during a mass rollback, which was itself needed due to the Dropbox client interpreting a drive disconnection as a mass file deletion.
  - 3np 5y ago
    > I'd strongly advise someone who is deciding between buying an external hard drive or using a third party for backup to use the third party One does not safely rely on one third party for backups. You should do both the local drive and the remote, not one or the other.
- askvictor 5y ago
  ... and you notice the file corruption/deletion before the 30/180 day recovery period has ticked over...
- nucleardog 5y ago
  By that logic _nothing_ is a backup. A disconnected hard-drive could be lost in a fire, theft, physical damage, you could stop paying your rent and your landlord could repossess it... Telling people that any redundant copy that isn't 100% reliable (i.e., everything) isn't a backup is not a good way to get people to take backups.
  - romwell 5y ago
    This is not correct. While a hard-drive could be lost in a fire, etc., the state of availability of the data on it is decoupled from that of the system that has the data that's being backed up. And that's the entire point! Take that as a definition: a backup is a redundant copy whose availability is independent of that of the original. FYI, from one of the comments below: >I've "lost" (had to restore from personal backup drives) data from Dropbox due to an error made by their support staff during a mass rollback, which was itself needed due to the Dropbox client interpreting a drive disconnection as a mass file deletion.
    - Too 5y ago
      How decoupled is decoupled enough though? Does it need to be air-gapped? You could access your dropbox data from computer B even while it is syncing files from computer A. Together with the 30 day file recovery window, this seems fairly decoupled to me. Assuming that the dropbox file history and the dropbox normal sync is seen as two separate systems. Now you shouldn't have this as your only backup, but combine it with a second service with similar guarantees and even if you wipe your local drive and the wipe get propagated to dropbox, you are still backed by the 30 day history inside both dropbox and the second service, which are decoupled from each other.
- jpeloquin 5y ago
  I think it is correct that, without unusual precautions, Dropbox should not be counted as a distinct backup copy for satisfying the 3-copies rule. I've "lost" (had to restore from personal backup drives) data from Dropbox due to an error made by their support staff during a mass rollback, which was itself needed due to the Dropbox client interpreting a drive disconnection as a mass file deletion. (This was before they implemented mass rollback through the UI; it's a safer process now.) And this is fine. Dropbox does file synchronization, which means it propagates data loss as well as intentional changes.
jeffbee 5y ago
You know, Dropbox functions in part on the assumption that users act independently. I wonder if they can tell, and if so what happens, if a vendor bug like the one in the article cause a large fraction of users to take the same action simultaneously.
romwell 5y ago
>Dropbox allows you to roll back changes and undelete files What you are saying, is that Dropbox allows you to purchase a backup service from them (without any guarantees, at that). Cloud sync isn't backup. If someone performs backups on the either side of the cloud, that's great, but that's an extra, which is what I'm saying to begin with :)

by acchow 5y ago

romwell 5y ago

...if you pay for it, and if your account doesn't get hacked, and if nothing goes wrong on Dropbox's side, and... That's to say, Dropbox is not a backup.

munk-a 5y ago
I don't know if this has gone to court yet - but I'd assume that if Dropbox does a thing to delete a bunch of data that causes you a great loss of value when you're paying them specifically to store a bunch of data - then there would be enough of an implied contract in place that you could extract a bunch of pain from them regardless of what their TOS tries to say. The law is complicated and the details are extremely important - but intent is a pretty big factor. Also - I'd strongly advise someone who is deciding between buying an external hard drive or using a third party for backup to use the third party. There are definitely risks that remain, but their SLA is likely going to end up being a lot stronger than your hard drive's reliability.
- cma 5y ago
  Then people irresponsibly storing single copies of critical data on Dropbox raise the cost for more responsible users, because upon loss Dropbox has to pay out the high value of the loss to the irresponsible user, but pay next to nothing to the reponsible users, who already have multiple backups or store less critical data. It should at least be a tiered offering with different liability caps.
- rgbrenner 5y ago
  That has gone to court. They're using the same limitation of liability (including data loss), as-is clause, and waiver of warranties found in every software license. It's entirely enforceable. Read the TOS. You're not getting anything from them if they delete your data.
- romwell 5y ago
  I am very sorry to break it to you, but there is no Santa, and you'll be SOL if Dropbox's SLA hits a SNAFU. Also, from another comment in this thread: >I've "lost" (had to restore from personal backup drives) data from Dropbox due to an error made by their support staff during a mass rollback, which was itself needed due to the Dropbox client interpreting a drive disconnection as a mass file deletion.
- 3np 5y ago
  > I'd strongly advise someone who is deciding between buying an external hard drive or using a third party for backup to use the third party One does not safely rely on one third party for backups. You should do both the local drive and the remote, not one or the other.
askvictor 5y ago
... and you notice the file corruption/deletion before the 30/180 day recovery period has ticked over...
nucleardog 5y ago
By that logic _nothing_ is a backup. A disconnected hard-drive could be lost in a fire, theft, physical damage, you could stop paying your rent and your landlord could repossess it... Telling people that any redundant copy that isn't 100% reliable (i.e., everything) isn't a backup is not a good way to get people to take backups.
- romwell 5y ago
  This is not correct. While a hard-drive could be lost in a fire, etc., the state of availability of the data on it is decoupled from that of the system that has the data that's being backed up. And that's the entire point! Take that as a definition: a backup is a redundant copy whose availability is independent of that of the original. FYI, from one of the comments below: >I've "lost" (had to restore from personal backup drives) data from Dropbox due to an error made by their support staff during a mass rollback, which was itself needed due to the Dropbox client interpreting a drive disconnection as a mass file deletion.
  - Too 5y ago
    How decoupled is decoupled enough though? Does it need to be air-gapped? You could access your dropbox data from computer B even while it is syncing files from computer A. Together with the 30 day file recovery window, this seems fairly decoupled to me. Assuming that the dropbox file history and the dropbox normal sync is seen as two separate systems. Now you shouldn't have this as your only backup, but combine it with a second service with similar guarantees and even if you wipe your local drive and the wipe get propagated to dropbox, you are still backed by the 30 day history inside both dropbox and the second service, which are decoupled from each other.
jpeloquin 5y ago
I think it is correct that, without unusual precautions, Dropbox should not be counted as a distinct backup copy for satisfying the 3-copies rule. I've "lost" (had to restore from personal backup drives) data from Dropbox due to an error made by their support staff during a mass rollback, which was itself needed due to the Dropbox client interpreting a drive disconnection as a mass file deletion. (This was before they implemented mass rollback through the UI; it's a safer process now.) And this is fine. Dropbox does file synchronization, which means it propagates data loss as well as intentional changes.

jeffbee 5y ago

You know, Dropbox functions in part on the assumption that users act independently. I wonder if they can tell, and if so what happens, if a vendor bug like the one in the article cause a large fraction of users to take the same action simultaneously.

romwell 5y ago

>Dropbox allows you to roll back changes and undelete files What you are saying, is that Dropbox allows you to purchase a backup service from them (without any guarantees, at that). Cloud sync isn't backup. If someone performs backups on the either side of the cloud, that's great, but that's an extra, which is what I'm saying to begin with :)