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I love this philosophical point. There is a sense of imperialism in forcing cultural and lifestyle changes over «your way of doing things is objectively wrong b

by marvin 5y ago

I love this philosophical point. There is a sense of imperialism in forcing cultural and lifestyle changes over «your way of doing things is objectively wrong because of reasons so and so (child mortality, income, age expectancy etc)». And that’s even if there are only honest intentions behind forcing a minority (indiginous, in this case) culture to change, with no side effects that work towards the self-interest of the stronger culture. Iain Banks makes this point about human nature many times in his books. Many people will voluntarily choose a more painful lifestyle even when more comfortable options are available. I’d largely go as far as saying it’s a fundamental human right to decide what lifestyle to follow, as long as it’s consentual and doesn’t step on the huma rights of others.

munk-a 5y ago
One of the reasons I am rather fond of the Amish as a group (even though their lifestyle isn't for me) is that while they do have pretty strict religious tenants, they also[1] strongly embrace and celebrate the fact that offspring are given a free choice of whether to stay within the community or leave it - it allows the individual to make the choice that's right for them but it does potentially erode the survival of the culture. The Shakers eschewed procreation as part of their culture and relied on adoption and voluntary adult membership to continue on and died out quite a while back so this sort of cultural extinction is quite a real possibility. That's where I think this gets muddled and especially difficult. Will there be people struggling in this traditional culture that really wish to live a life more in tune with western values but feel constrained by their local community to remain in a traditional setting. When it comes to children and which path the next generation takes - that's where this problem gets really hard to think on. Just the other day on HN there was a discussion of transgender rights and part of it included considerations on whether children should be able to freely elect to have non-reversible surgery (that is something of a strawman since it is an extremely rare desire in child but :shrug:) and it's a place I feel torn because developing minds are still trying to learn their identity. 1. Seem to at least from everything I've read and Pennsylvanians I've spoken to - I wasn't raised Amish and can't give a first hand account.
refurb 5y ago
Adults can choose of their own free will how to live. But do they have the right to force a child into a life of disease, malnutrition and lack of education? What if the rest of society has to pay for the consequences of that choice?
- bookofsand 5y ago
  Parents are and should be deciding the set of values and skills their children acquire. As the Amish demonstrate, there are ways to mix tradition and modernity in a functional package. However, it is highly likely that indigenous American parents would rather choose a modern education for their children. The myth that the indigenous American parents, given an informed choice, would somehow condemn their children to a life of deep poverty, malnutrition and disease outside of the industrial society is just a myth. Like indigenous Europeans, the vast majority of indigenous Americans would rather join the modern culture and enjoy the fruits of its incredible wealth generation structures. Small isolated pockets, like the Amish, notwithstanding. To those glamorizing preindustrial lifestyles, take a summer off your cushy six figure office job and go live in an unelectrified hut on some remote mountain, living off the land. With your spouse and kids. Wake up as soon as the sun rises, do hard labor all day long (e.g. manually mow a meadow with a scythe), eat polenta and maybe a bit of cheese, crash for the night, lather, rinse, repeat. Chances are you'll last less than a week. How do I know? I lasted about 10 minutes.
- acituan 5y ago
  Not trying to be sarcastic but looking at the child obesity rates and educational crises, medication rates etc; disease, malnutrition and lack of education are adjectives that also fit the US. This is exactly why “we know the right way, why won’t you just follow it” is just as an imperialistic and honestly arrogant point of view.
  - refurb 5y ago
    So your argument is “things aren’t perfect in the US, so the US has no right to claim its approach is better”? That’s an absurd statement. That’s like saying “well people still die of cancer with modern medicine so you can’t criticize my use of essential oils to treat my brain tumor”. Based on childhood mortality alone, let alone any other measures of childhood development, the current western approach is objectively the far better one.

by marvin 5y ago

munk-a 5y ago

One of the reasons I am rather fond of the Amish as a group (even though their lifestyle isn't for me) is that while they do have pretty strict religious tenants, they also[1] strongly embrace and celebrate the fact that offspring are given a free choice of whether to stay within the community or leave it - it allows the individual to make the choice that's right for them but it does potentially erode the survival of the culture. The Shakers eschewed procreation as part of their culture and relied on adoption and voluntary adult membership to continue on and died out quite a while back so this sort of cultural extinction is quite a real possibility. That's where I think this gets muddled and especially difficult. Will there be people struggling in this traditional culture that really wish to live a life more in tune with western values but feel constrained by their local community to remain in a traditional setting. When it comes to children and which path the next generation takes - that's where this problem gets really hard to think on. Just the other day on HN there was a discussion of transgender rights and part of it included considerations on whether children should be able to freely elect to have non-reversible surgery (that is something of a strawman since it is an extremely rare desire in child but :shrug:) and it's a place I feel torn because developing minds are still trying to learn their identity. 1. Seem to at least from everything I've read and Pennsylvanians I've spoken to - I wasn't raised Amish and can't give a first hand account.

refurb 5y ago

Adults can choose of their own free will how to live. But do they have the right to force a child into a life of disease, malnutrition and lack of education? What if the rest of society has to pay for the consequences of that choice?

bookofsand 5y ago
Parents are and should be deciding the set of values and skills their children acquire. As the Amish demonstrate, there are ways to mix tradition and modernity in a functional package. However, it is highly likely that indigenous American parents would rather choose a modern education for their children. The myth that the indigenous American parents, given an informed choice, would somehow condemn their children to a life of deep poverty, malnutrition and disease outside of the industrial society is just a myth. Like indigenous Europeans, the vast majority of indigenous Americans would rather join the modern culture and enjoy the fruits of its incredible wealth generation structures. Small isolated pockets, like the Amish, notwithstanding. To those glamorizing preindustrial lifestyles, take a summer off your cushy six figure office job and go live in an unelectrified hut on some remote mountain, living off the land. With your spouse and kids. Wake up as soon as the sun rises, do hard labor all day long (e.g. manually mow a meadow with a scythe), eat polenta and maybe a bit of cheese, crash for the night, lather, rinse, repeat. Chances are you'll last less than a week. How do I know? I lasted about 10 minutes.
acituan 5y ago
Not trying to be sarcastic but looking at the child obesity rates and educational crises, medication rates etc; disease, malnutrition and lack of education are adjectives that also fit the US. This is exactly why “we know the right way, why won’t you just follow it” is just as an imperialistic and honestly arrogant point of view.
- refurb 5y ago
  So your argument is “things aren’t perfect in the US, so the US has no right to claim its approach is better”? That’s an absurd statement. That’s like saying “well people still die of cancer with modern medicine so you can’t criticize my use of essential oils to treat my brain tumor”. Based on childhood mortality alone, let alone any other measures of childhood development, the current western approach is objectively the far better one.