5 ms·

The author's ideas are wacko and won't work. I've published two technical papers in peer-reviewed journals where I was the only author, published several more

The author's ideas are wacko and won't work. I've published two technical papers in peer-reviewed journals where I was the only author, published several more papers in peer-reviewed journals where I had co-authors, and wrote a Ph.D. dissertation that was reviewed as "an original contribution to knowledge worthy of publication". The papers I published were reviewed essentially on the usual criteria of "new, correct, and significant". Here is one place the author gets way off track: For a technical research paper, e.g., new, correct, and significant, reading it is difficult, and judging if it is new, correct, and significant is more difficult. In an experimental science, judging if the work is reproducible adds more difficulty. It's TOUGH work. The work is so tough that for some huge majority of papers that are published, nearly the only careful reading at least for some years will be during the review process. Maybe later the paper will get referenced, carefully read by many people, etc. So, the idea of the article of this thread that commonly for papers that just appear on-line there can be 'votes' from many competent readings is just uninformed, misinformed, ignorant, just plain wrong, brain-dead nonsense. Here's more: Now, when an author A sends a paper to journal X, there is a good chance that the paper is actually in or close to the specialty S of journal X. So, the reviewers of journal X have a good chance of being among the best people to review the paper. If journal X does publish the paper, then author A, the paper, and people interested in specialty S get a lot of help because journal X has said that the paper is new, correct, and significant for specialty S. STILL, even with all this help for specialty S, the paper will likely be carefully and competently read at least for some years essentially only by the reviewers of journal X. Since it is so difficult even with the help of journal X in specialty S to get such papers read, for a paper just posted on-line there is no hope at all. Maybe in some experimental sciences reading a paper is relatively easy; however, judging if the experimental work is reproducible promises to be difficult. Maybe not in experimental science but in essentially all of the rest, there is a fundamental difficulty about research that is new, correct, and significant: Almost necessarily nearly no one will understand the paper easily or understand the paper at all. Else, given basic academic competitiveness, the results in the paper would long since have been old instead of new. So, the research and review processes have to work always right at the edge of what can currently be understood at all. For meeting this fundamental difficulty, the present journal system helps, and just putting papers on the Internet is hopeless.

chalst 15y ago
Did you read the Richard Smith article he linked to? http://breast-cancer-research.com/content/12/S4/S13 http://breast-cancer-research.com/content/12/S4/S13
- Estragon 15y ago
  Yes, as that article makes clear, the point is not that a voting system is perfect, it's that the current onerous system provides no benefit over much simpler arrangements.
- NY_Entrepreneur 15y ago
  Okay, I just read http://breast-cancer-research.com/content/12/S4/S13 http://breast-cancer-research.com/content/12/S4/S13 Yup, again, his ideas are wacko and won't work. Again, the main problem with just putting the papers on-line and letting people 'review' them then is that mostly the papers won't get read nearly as carefully as with the present peer-review process; or, even if some paper does get read carefully, other readers mostly won't have any very good way to know this. Uh, publish several well regarded papers in specialty S, and then maybe get invited to review some papers in specialty S. Do well reviewing and impress some journals in specialty S, and maybe get invited to be an editor of a journal in specialty S. Do well as an editor, and when Elsevier, etc., starts a new journal in specialty S, maybe get invited to the the editor in chief. That takes ballpark 20 years. Net, the present paper review system has a severe 'promotion' mechanism that is an enormous aid to quality the journal readers can value. That is, the readers have a good way to know about the quality of the reviewing. With the proposal of this thread, even if a paper got a careful review, the readers would not know this. That is, the proposal throws out the baby with the bathwater. As I described, reading research papers and judging if they are new, correct, and significant is TOUGH work. The present process makes a good effort at this tough work, and his proposal omits any very serious effort at such work. With irony, eventually his proposal would lead to a system of 'upvotes' from 'respected reviewers'! Or, "I don't understand the paper, but it was upvoted by Professor Issac Iatrogenic at Sawbones Medical School."! He still wants voting, but he has no well designed 'voting system', and the present peer-review process does. If he wants a better system, then okay, but his proposal is for essentially no system, and that would be much worse. For his many arguments, mostly they omit a big, huge point: He's considering the problems with the papers that were accepted but is not considering the no doubt on average much more severe problems with the huge number of papers that were rejected. His proposal to 'publish' just by posting on the Internet would result in all the rejected papers also being posted and, then, of course, soon, still more junk papers. Why buy Tide laundry detergent? Why drink Coke? Are we afraid that both Tide and Coke might give us something toxic? No. Of course not. Why? Because Tide and Coke have been used by many millions of people and are from companies with a huge financial fortune to lose if their quality falls. So, we 'trust' Tide and Coke. So, Tide and Coke are for us valuable 'brands', "valuable" because we can trust them because we know how much evidence there is that the products are at least okay. So, similarly, the peer-reviewed journals provide researchers with such valuable 'brand names' they can trust better than just some paper posted on the Internet. Net, the author of http://breast-cancer-research.com/content/12/S4/S13 http://breast-cancer-research.com/content/12/S4/S13 just doesn't 'get it'. He's looking for something he wants, doesn't get as much as he wants, and proposes a system that is still worse. Let's take his point about publication delays. That doesn't matter very much! Once the paper is submitted, it's no longer a secret, and mostly relevant researchers don't actually have to wait for the printed version two years later to make use of the paper. Let's take his point about the 'cost' of reviewing: Well the reviewers LIKE to review because it helps them keep up in their fields and, thus, is good for their careers! The effort to review is not a 'cost of the peer-review system' but just routine work by the reviewers for their own careers. In a hot field, reviewing the papers can be an advantage in time; the reviewer gets the papers maybe two years before someone just looking at published papers. Let's take his point about reviews of papers after they are published: Sure, over time, including after publication, the reputation of a paper can change. He wants to use this effect to replace the initial peer-review process. But he ignores that he is talking about papers that have been published and, thus, have passed peer-review, that is, are already 'certified' as being on the inside of the fence. If just publish papers on the Internet, then that first step of being 'certified' will be missing and the paper might just languish much longer before anything like the after publication review process he likes now. Or, he's missing the big point about how to filter water: First, just before the pick up of the pump, have a screen that filters out the rocks down to the size of sand. Second, have a fiber filter that filters out all the solids down to about 10 microns. Maybe next deal with the usual suspects of compounds of calcium, iron, and manganese. Next deal with bacteria. Next maybe use reverse osmosis or distillation to deal with everything else. Likely now have some good water to drink. Well, paper reviewing also has 'stages', and one of the early ones, but not the last one, but one that helps the last ones, is peer-review. E.g., we don't ask the reverse osmosis to filter out the gravel! His point about novel, original, or innovative work being rejected is poorly considered: We're not talking popularity of fashion frocks here. Instead, novel, etc., or not, a paper still has to be new, correct, and significant. Believe me, a solid proof that P = NP will not be rejected because it is too 'novel'! It will be accepted because the work is, again, new, correct, and significant. It is 'novel' mostly because it is especially significant. Again, to get published, pass new, correct, and significant. If after that the paper is also wildly 'novel', so be it; it still got published! He missed the big, huge point about focus on research specialties: As I described, if paper from author A goes to journal X in specialty S, then likely already the paper is in the right set or an appropriate set of editors, reviewers, and researchers. If the paper is well regarded, then the people in specialty S learn about it fairly quickly. So journal X serves as an 'accumulation point' for specialty S. If just publish papers on the Internet, then lose the value of such 'sets' and 'accumulation points'. So, indeed, if his proposal were to become accepted, an early step would be to have, for each specialty S, a special place to post papers in specialty S. Then to keep down the noise level, that special place for specialty S would have a 'moderator'. A good 'moderator' would be the editor in chief of journal X. Soon he would get too busy and would want some editors, say, from journal X. The editors would get too busy and soon would want some reviewers, say, from journal X. Then all concerned would want some quality control for their special place for specialty S. So, the moderator would call himself the editor in chief again and insist that his editors insist that their reviewers actually do good peer-reviews. Maybe the whole Internet site would be sponsored by Elsevier. Then they would charge for the papers that passed the reviews. Now except for tree cutting, we would be back where we are now. If he wants to improve the quality in publishing, then I have a suggestion for him: Do some brilliant research work, write it up as a paper, and submit it!

chalst 15y ago

Did you read the Richard Smith article he linked to? http://breast-cancer-research.com/content/12/S4/S13 http://breast-cancer-research.com/content/12/S4/S13

Estragon 15y ago
Yes, as that article makes clear, the point is not that a voting system is perfect, it's that the current onerous system provides no benefit over much simpler arrangements.
NY_Entrepreneur 15y ago
Okay, I just read http://breast-cancer-research.com/content/12/S4/S13 http://breast-cancer-research.com/content/12/S4/S13 Yup, again, his ideas are wacko and won't work. Again, the main problem with just putting the papers on-line and letting people 'review' them then is that mostly the papers won't get read nearly as carefully as with the present peer-review process; or, even if some paper does get read carefully, other readers mostly won't have any very good way to know this. Uh, publish several well regarded papers in specialty S, and then maybe get invited to review some papers in specialty S. Do well reviewing and impress some journals in specialty S, and maybe get invited to be an editor of a journal in specialty S. Do well as an editor, and when Elsevier, etc., starts a new journal in specialty S, maybe get invited to the the editor in chief. That takes ballpark 20 years. Net, the present paper review system has a severe 'promotion' mechanism that is an enormous aid to quality the journal readers can value. That is, the readers have a good way to know about the quality of the reviewing. With the proposal of this thread, even if a paper got a careful review, the readers would not know this. That is, the proposal throws out the baby with the bathwater. As I described, reading research papers and judging if they are new, correct, and significant is TOUGH work. The present process makes a good effort at this tough work, and his proposal omits any very serious effort at such work. With irony, eventually his proposal would lead to a system of 'upvotes' from 'respected reviewers'! Or, "I don't understand the paper, but it was upvoted by Professor Issac Iatrogenic at Sawbones Medical School."! He still wants voting, but he has no well designed 'voting system', and the present peer-review process does. If he wants a better system, then okay, but his proposal is for essentially no system, and that would be much worse. For his many arguments, mostly they omit a big, huge point: He's considering the problems with the papers that were accepted but is not considering the no doubt on average much more severe problems with the huge number of papers that were rejected. His proposal to 'publish' just by posting on the Internet would result in all the rejected papers also being posted and, then, of course, soon, still more junk papers. Why buy Tide laundry detergent? Why drink Coke? Are we afraid that both Tide and Coke might give us something toxic? No. Of course not. Why? Because Tide and Coke have been used by many millions of people and are from companies with a huge financial fortune to lose if their quality falls. So, we 'trust' Tide and Coke. So, Tide and Coke are for us valuable 'brands', "valuable" because we can trust them because we know how much evidence there is that the products are at least okay. So, similarly, the peer-reviewed journals provide researchers with such valuable 'brand names' they can trust better than just some paper posted on the Internet. Net, the author of http://breast-cancer-research.com/content/12/S4/S13 http://breast-cancer-research.com/content/12/S4/S13 just doesn't 'get it'. He's looking for something he wants, doesn't get as much as he wants, and proposes a system that is still worse. Let's take his point about publication delays. That doesn't matter very much! Once the paper is submitted, it's no longer a secret, and mostly relevant researchers don't actually have to wait for the printed version two years later to make use of the paper. Let's take his point about the 'cost' of reviewing: Well the reviewers LIKE to review because it helps them keep up in their fields and, thus, is good for their careers! The effort to review is not a 'cost of the peer-review system' but just routine work by the reviewers for their own careers. In a hot field, reviewing the papers can be an advantage in time; the reviewer gets the papers maybe two years before someone just looking at published papers. Let's take his point about reviews of papers after they are published: Sure, over time, including after publication, the reputation of a paper can change. He wants to use this effect to replace the initial peer-review process. But he ignores that he is talking about papers that have been published and, thus, have passed peer-review, that is, are already 'certified' as being on the inside of the fence. If just publish papers on the Internet, then that first step of being 'certified' will be missing and the paper might just languish much longer before anything like the after publication review process he likes now. Or, he's missing the big point about how to filter water: First, just before the pick up of the pump, have a screen that filters out the rocks down to the size of sand. Second, have a fiber filter that filters out all the solids down to about 10 microns. Maybe next deal with the usual suspects of compounds of calcium, iron, and manganese. Next deal with bacteria. Next maybe use reverse osmosis or distillation to deal with everything else. Likely now have some good water to drink. Well, paper reviewing also has 'stages', and one of the early ones, but not the last one, but one that helps the last ones, is peer-review. E.g., we don't ask the reverse osmosis to filter out the gravel! His point about novel, original, or innovative work being rejected is poorly considered: We're not talking popularity of fashion frocks here. Instead, novel, etc., or not, a paper still has to be new, correct, and significant. Believe me, a solid proof that P = NP will not be rejected because it is too 'novel'! It will be accepted because the work is, again, new, correct, and significant. It is 'novel' mostly because it is especially significant. Again, to get published, pass new, correct, and significant. If after that the paper is also wildly 'novel', so be it; it still got published! He missed the big, huge point about focus on research specialties: As I described, if paper from author A goes to journal X in specialty S, then likely already the paper is in the right set or an appropriate set of editors, reviewers, and researchers. If the paper is well regarded, then the people in specialty S learn about it fairly quickly. So journal X serves as an 'accumulation point' for specialty S. If just publish papers on the Internet, then lose the value of such 'sets' and 'accumulation points'. So, indeed, if his proposal were to become accepted, an early step would be to have, for each specialty S, a special place to post papers in specialty S. Then to keep down the noise level, that special place for specialty S would have a 'moderator'. A good 'moderator' would be the editor in chief of journal X. Soon he would get too busy and would want some editors, say, from journal X. The editors would get too busy and soon would want some reviewers, say, from journal X. Then all concerned would want some quality control for their special place for specialty S. So, the moderator would call himself the editor in chief again and insist that his editors insist that their reviewers actually do good peer-reviews. Maybe the whole Internet site would be sponsored by Elsevier. Then they would charge for the papers that passed the reviews. Now except for tree cutting, we would be back where we are now. If he wants to improve the quality in publishing, then I have a suggestion for him: Do some brilliant research work, write it up as a paper, and submit it!