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You cringe when you hear phrases like "collective opinion" regarding science, because science is supposed to be objective, correct? Further, I suppose you reco
by econgeeker 15y ago
You cringe when you hear phrases like "collective opinion" regarding science, because science is supposed to be objective, correct? Further, I suppose you recognize that science is not subject to the will of the majority, but to the scientific process, right?
Yet, when it comes to scientific papers, you want to see them subject to the filtering of "experts" to assure they are politically correct?
During my time working in a national lab I had several papers published. Around me, there were over 100 Phds, all of whom were actively publishing papers, and we worked together on them, at least to review them. We were investigating an area of physics regarding the electrical properties of some rather exotic materials. One thing about the peer review process is that it is very highly political.
Often, perfectly legitimate papers would be refused for publication because they disagreed with a scientific view of one of the peers. Sometimes we'd have to submit the paper to another journal.
But at least this level of "politics" was scientific politics. I don't like that some Professor Emeritus is holding to an older view, as that forces us to make our argument a bit stronger, or to do a bit more experimentation to resolve his concerns. But, sometimes, there was just no way we were getting published in that journal. This is completely subjective. Sometimes our case was really not strong enough, but often, it was simply our position was too modern.
And that was the state of affairs (at that time, in that area) without any undue government influence.
I believe the earth is very old and evolution is an observable phenomena. But I don't see how any scientist who also holds this view is threatened by articles proposing the alternative. Some creationist makes a publication claiming that evolution is wrong-- should be amusing!
On "global climate change" there is no scientific consensus. The idea that there is a "consensus" is a political talking point that lets people who don't understand the science short circuit debate by claiming that the scientific community has reached a conclusion. Worse, given the political nature of that position, government is starting to influence the actual publication of papers to make sure they comply with the AGW political correctness filter.
I shudder to think the road this country is going down if political correctness remains in the review system.
However, I recognize the right of journals to choose their publication standards as they wish. This is also why I oppose any sort of government "blessing" or requirements for journals. Having made "peer reviewed" a phrase that is code for "legitimate", I don't want to see the politically correct crowd start dictating which panels of peers are "legitimate" and which ones are not.
If it is time for a new journal to cover a new branch, then let a new journal form. This is how many of them got started in the past-- people unable to find publication elsewhere, for reasons such as topic, length, nature of the research, formed new journals.
PS- FWIW, AGW is really easily disproven if you are familiar with the basic science. The IR absorption of CO2 is below that of water vapor, the CO2 levels in the past have been higher than the "tipping point", etc. AGW, is really a political, not a scientific, movement. This is what is so insidious about the idea that "All scientists agree"- it makes proponents of this theory feel like they don't have to defend their position, and that anyone who disagrees is "rejecting science", when it is the reverse. "collective opinion" is not how science works. Yet, I've never met an AGW proponent who actually understood the AGW theory, and the science behind it, well enough to debate the issue, but I've gotten a lot of hate for failing to regurgitate the party line. I half expect to get banned from this forum for taking this minority view, in fact.
- agravier 15y ago> I half expect to get banned from this forum for taking this minority view, in fact. This kind of sentence reveals much about your psychology, and not in your favor, you should avoid it. I think your comment is a little confusing, and I am not sure if you re trying to argue in favor of crowd-sourced reviews/ratings, apart from arguing against the effectiveness of peer review and against "government influence." Anyway, if this is the case (that you believe that the opinion of peer scientists is of lesser value than that of the general public), I would like to point out that you are not examining properly any alternative to peer reviews, in particular crowd-sourcing. You also take your experience emotionally, and some arguments seem weak evidence for the dysfunction of the system as a whole: > ... Sometimes we'd have to submit the paper to another journal. > I don't like that some Professor Emeritus is holding to an older view, as that forces us to make our argument a bit stronger...
- econgeeker 15y agoMy point is that journals should use whatever methodology to choose papers for publication that they feel is appropriate. And that there should be no forced "peer review" standard, since this methodology is currently being used to exclude valid scientific research for political purposes. This forum bans people for having a minority opinion. I wanted to mention that, because I would not be surprised to be banned for expressing such an opinion. When it happens, you have no way of knowing it. So, you probably think this forum is an open one where any opinion is allowed so long as you are not trolling. That is not the case.
- agravier 15y agoIndeed, I am thinking so, but I am ready to doubt my beliefs. Do you have anything substantial to back this? Surely, there must be external pages presenting the problems to which you refer, on websites are out of reach of anyone in control of such a censoring system.
- bendmorris 15y ago"But I don't see how any scientist who also holds this view is threatened by articles proposing the alternative. Some creationist makes a publication claiming that evolution is wrong-- should be amusing!" You're right that science should be objective. You then say that evolution is an observable phenomena. Well then, how could a paper disputing evolution be objective? They're welcome to submit such a paper, as long as it's good science. It's not threatening, it's just potentially misleading to people who read it and gives the author the chance to claim legitimacy through publication. That's what the peer review process exists for, to weed out bad science, so that the general public is not required to try to evaluate claims that require expertise they don't have. Again, it certainly has its problems, but it's better than outsourcing to non-experts. Peer review can also sometimes be politically motivated, but, at least in my experience, that's often the argument of someone who's angry because their paper was rejected for legitimate reasons. The fact that you think "AGW" is simply and provably false is also a beautiful demonstration of why we need peer review. You have a ridiculously simplistic view of the issue and of the status of consensus because you're opining on a question that's outside your field. (I'm just guessing, but you're not a climatologist, are you?) There are a lot of "experts" like yourself making similar claims who have no idea what state the field is in. If you tried to get such a paper published, professional climatologists would say, "hey, we're not idiots, we study this for a living and have taken basic physics and chemistry. Nice try." And they would send your paper back, as they should.