3 ms·

Work is work, my dudes. And in a tech company that means teamwork and collaboration. I don’t care what anybody says, zoom and slack are not even remotely close

Work is work, my dudes. And in a tech company that means teamwork and collaboration. I don’t care what anybody says, zoom and slack are not even remotely close to face to face interactions. Sure it may not always seem that way to a developer who just wants to write code and not care about anything else, but there are lots of important roles besides developer in any tech company worth its weight. Not many of those roles are very amenable to working from home full time. Even developers working on a team, I’d argue, can't contribute 100% working purely from home. Good developers do way more than just write code. They mentor, help shape the product with UX and business people, etc. All that requires face time. If devs want to work remote, I highly recommend becoming a contractor / consultant. Remote and contract work go together like peas and carrots. You get fed largely spec’d work, don’t really need to care about office politics, etc… There are plenty of cons… you also become your own collection agency cause dudes can take months paying you. But if remote is what you want, contracting is the best. Anyway, this became kind of a ramble.

toomuchtodo 5y ago
I cannot agree with your thesis. There are fully remote companies (using Zoom and Slack primarily) with hundreds of people generating well over $100M in ARR worth billions of dollars. You are free to your opinion, but the data doesn’t support your conclusion. Teamwork and collaboration can and does work fully remote, whether you’re in engineering, bizops, product, or customer experience. Entire legacy enterprises went remote virtually overnight due to COVID and continued to hum along for well over 15 months. Remote skills are the new “computer skills.” If your org sucks, yeah, remote isn’t going to work. That’s not an issue with a remote operating model, it’s because your org sucks to begin with (whether that’s due to ineffective line managers, failure of executive leadership to cultivate the appropriate culture, what have you). If your org sucks, I recommend voting with your feet.
- spookthesunset 5y ago
  Yes there are some remote only companies and it works for them. Like most of life it is hard to determine if they are outliers or something meaningful. I mean I could point to Yahoo, who yanked back all their remote work because people were slacking off. Not all companies are gonna be remote only. If you want fully remote, go find a place that is fully remote. They have existed for quite some time. Personally I think we are gonna rapidly revert right back to the mean, which is what life was like back in 2019. The idea that this last year is somehow gonna usher in a new age of remote work is… wishful thinking. Tech companies invest a ton onto their office experience. There is a reason for that.
  - toomuchtodo 5y ago
    Yahoo didn’t pull back workers because they were slacking, it was because Marissa Mayer didn’t know how to manage, which is clear from how she managed Yahoo right into the ground. https://distantjob.com/blog/yeah-but-yahoo-learning-from-remote-works-biggest-fail/ https://distantjob.com/blog/yeah-but-yahoo-learning-from-rem... > Which brings us to the ban on remote working. Mayer took over as CEO at Yahoo! in July 2012, so calling everyone into the office in February wasn’t a knee-jerk reaction. The memo, authored by Jackie Reses, says, ‘Some of the best decisions and insights come from hallway and cafeteria discussions, meeting new people, and impromptu team meetings.’ In other words, this is the old water cooler myth rearing it’s ugly head again. > It wasn’t just regular remote workers who got asked to stay in the office. The email also targeted those who stayed at home when needed, ‘for the rest of us who occasionally have to stay home for the cable guy, please use your best judgment in the spirit of collaboration.’ For whatever reason, Mayer had decided that she wanted her staff in the offices at all times. With regards to reverting back to the mean, I wish you the best if you’re trying to attract talent. They have options now.
    - alisonkisk 5y ago
      > Mayer had decided that she wanted her staff in the offices at all times. And when she had a baby, she had Yahoo build a nursery for herself in the office, to give an extra Fuck You to all her employees. Mayer was a Machiavellian corporate climber from her first job out of college as Larry Page's Girlfriend at Google and getting installed as a senior exec before doing any substantial work of any kind.
    - pram 5y ago
      I don’t disagree with your analysis, but iirc (its been awhile) this was pretext for (essentially) a stealth layoff It seems extra hostile and punitive because they didn’t necessarily want people to actually “come back”
- jclardy 5y ago
  I'd also say that this past year was a bad example of remote. Of course remote isn't going to work for an org that is used to everyone in office up until March 2020. You break everyone out of so many habits - no more commute time, no more prepared food, no more professionally cleaned workspace, no "built-in" work/home separation. Those factors alone are going to bottom out productivity while people figure things out. Remote really requires a specific type of person, and a curated environment. Having a "place' separated just for work is a huge boon, and many people used to going into an office just don't have that. I think that is ultimately why orgs built around remote work perfectly fine - the people working there are already in the habit of creating their work/home separation, used to making their own meals, used to keeping their own desk clean (Without outside social pressure to do so.)

toomuchtodo 5y ago

I cannot agree with your thesis. There are fully remote companies (using Zoom and Slack primarily) with hundreds of people generating well over $100M in ARR worth billions of dollars. You are free to your opinion, but the data doesn’t support your conclusion. Teamwork and collaboration can and does work fully remote, whether you’re in engineering, bizops, product, or customer experience. Entire legacy enterprises went remote virtually overnight due to COVID and continued to hum along for well over 15 months. Remote skills are the new “computer skills.” If your org sucks, yeah, remote isn’t going to work. That’s not an issue with a remote operating model, it’s because your org sucks to begin with (whether that’s due to ineffective line managers, failure of executive leadership to cultivate the appropriate culture, what have you). If your org sucks, I recommend voting with your feet.

spookthesunset 5y ago
Yes there are some remote only companies and it works for them. Like most of life it is hard to determine if they are outliers or something meaningful. I mean I could point to Yahoo, who yanked back all their remote work because people were slacking off. Not all companies are gonna be remote only. If you want fully remote, go find a place that is fully remote. They have existed for quite some time. Personally I think we are gonna rapidly revert right back to the mean, which is what life was like back in 2019. The idea that this last year is somehow gonna usher in a new age of remote work is… wishful thinking. Tech companies invest a ton onto their office experience. There is a reason for that.
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  Yahoo didn’t pull back workers because they were slacking, it was because Marissa Mayer didn’t know how to manage, which is clear from how she managed Yahoo right into the ground. https://distantjob.com/blog/yeah-but-yahoo-learning-from-remote-works-biggest-fail/ https://distantjob.com/blog/yeah-but-yahoo-learning-from-rem... > Which brings us to the ban on remote working. Mayer took over as CEO at Yahoo! in July 2012, so calling everyone into the office in February wasn’t a knee-jerk reaction. The memo, authored by Jackie Reses, says, ‘Some of the best decisions and insights come from hallway and cafeteria discussions, meeting new people, and impromptu team meetings.’ In other words, this is the old water cooler myth rearing it’s ugly head again. > It wasn’t just regular remote workers who got asked to stay in the office. The email also targeted those who stayed at home when needed, ‘for the rest of us who occasionally have to stay home for the cable guy, please use your best judgment in the spirit of collaboration.’ For whatever reason, Mayer had decided that she wanted her staff in the offices at all times. With regards to reverting back to the mean, I wish you the best if you’re trying to attract talent. They have options now.
  - alisonkisk 5y ago
    > Mayer had decided that she wanted her staff in the offices at all times. And when she had a baby, she had Yahoo build a nursery for herself in the office, to give an extra Fuck You to all her employees. Mayer was a Machiavellian corporate climber from her first job out of college as Larry Page's Girlfriend at Google and getting installed as a senior exec before doing any substantial work of any kind.
  - pram 5y ago
    I don’t disagree with your analysis, but iirc (its been awhile) this was pretext for (essentially) a stealth layoff It seems extra hostile and punitive because they didn’t necessarily want people to actually “come back”
jclardy 5y ago
I'd also say that this past year was a bad example of remote. Of course remote isn't going to work for an org that is used to everyone in office up until March 2020. You break everyone out of so many habits - no more commute time, no more prepared food, no more professionally cleaned workspace, no "built-in" work/home separation. Those factors alone are going to bottom out productivity while people figure things out. Remote really requires a specific type of person, and a curated environment. Having a "place' separated just for work is a huge boon, and many people used to going into an office just don't have that. I think that is ultimately why orgs built around remote work perfectly fine - the people working there are already in the habit of creating their work/home separation, used to making their own meals, used to keeping their own desk clean (Without outside social pressure to do so.)