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Firstly, the overwhelming majority of deaths have current records. There are gaps because of record destruction between 1936 to 1944, but the notion that this w

Firstly, the overwhelming majority of deaths have current records. There are gaps because of record destruction between 1936 to 1944, but the notion that this was all a secret, or that real numbers are being exposed, is not accurate. It is a grotesque period in history, and people should be angry, but a lot of people are effectively misleading people to try to anger. There is a huge amount of misinformation. Here's one famous residential school death that has been heavily leaned into - https://c2cjournal.ca/2017/10/the-sad-truth-about-chanie-wenjack/ https://c2cjournal.ca/2017/10/the-sad-truth-about-chanie-wen...

soperj 5y ago
Really? Can you show me the current records for the Marieval Indian Residential School where they just found 751 unmarked graves?
- defaultname 5y ago
  They didn't find 751 unmarked graves. Just as they didn't find 215 graves at Kamloops. These numbers are in all probability many multiples exaggerated over the reality. And the catch 22 is that any actual anthropological analysis is going to be restricted by the very group publishing the exaggerated numbers. So expect at the next location for it to be...why not 10,000? The methodology to derive these numbers borders on farcical. However we know that loads of children died at these facilities. Tragically. It has never been secret. It never had to be secret, sadly because native children were considered effectively expendable. That is the pox. The current culture of, effectively, horseshit isn't making it better.
  - soperj 5y ago
    Sorry, you do have a current record of how many children died at that school? or no?
    - defaultname 5y ago
      There are records from that school, yes. Are there enough to account for fictional numbers? No, why would there be? Do you understand how perilous counting "graves? with ground radar is? Note that the people who actually did the study are very careful with their language, noting that they found ground anomalies. The actual correlation with that and graves is incredibly loose.
      - brandon272 5y ago
        The "error rate" cited today by Cowessess First Nation and their partnered technical teams was 10% to 15%. The ground penetrating radar technology does not merely look for "ground anomalies", they work to specifically identify burial shafts, which tend to be rather distinctive. To say that they are merely counting any "anomaly" as a "fictional" grave is misrepresenting the work being done.
        defaultname 5y ago
        It is positively impossible to cite such an error rate with any accuracy without doing an archeological analysis to determine the ground truth for a given site, which hasn't remotely been done (and in all likelihood would be blocked by the relevant players). Any claims to the contrary are simply a lie. Ground radar grave analysis has a significant degree of reading tea leaves. https://www.sensoft.ca/blog/cemetery-data-grave-locator-findar/ https://www.sensoft.ca/blog/cemetery-data-grave-locator-find... GPR is a great tool for law enforcement to find possible disturbed soil sites. Its use declines when you're doing mass surveys unless it is merely guiding a dig.
        brandon272 5y ago
        > which hasn't remotely been done How do you know this? You either have specific knowledge of the scans and any associated archeological analysis done in BC and Sask, or you don't. What specific information do you have about the lack of analysis done in the Balcarres area? The Sensoft link has nothing to do with what has been done in BC nor Sask.
  - mrow84 5y ago
    Firstly, I can’t even begin to fathom how you could characterise people trying to determine what happened to their relatives, and where their remains might be, as a “culture of, effectively, horseshit”. Secondly, as far as I can tell you have made no substantive claims in this thread, your dismissals of the efforts in the article being backed solely by assertions, at a variety of levels of verbosity. If it is as important, as your many posts on the topic indicate you believe, to discredit the progress these people claim to have made, then I think you should try and provide some evidence to support your case.
    - defaultname 5y ago
      Ah, the "you've engaged in this discussion, ergo that invalidates your engagement in this discussion" ruse. Always a go to for a boring troll. "I can’t even begin to fathom" While there is zero sincerity in your trolling comment, for anyone else involved it's important to view all players as intelligent, rational, negotiating, and ultimately selfish human beings. It's important not to treat aboriginals as childlike, brainless caricatures like mrow84 does (e.g. the "noble savage").
      - mrow84 5y ago
        > "you've engaged in this discussion, ergo that invalidates your engagement in this discussion" I can’t figure out which part of my comment could be misinterpreted as having said this - please point it out to me so I can clarify my intent. > “there is zero sincerity in your … comment” I was very sincere in both of my points, those being, in summary, that your comments in the thread I replied into seem both insensitive and unevidenced. > “ it's important to view all players as intelligent, rational, negotiating, and ultimately selfish human beings. It's important not to treat aboriginals as childlike, brainless caricatures like mrow84 does (e.g. the "noble savage").” My only mention of people’s actions other than your own was to say that those searching for their relatives’ remains should probably not be characterised as engaging in a culture of horseshit. You can think what you like, but equating that with “treat(ing) aboriginals as childlike, brainless caricatures” seems like a bit of a stretch. If you think about it you might realise that there is quite a bit of ground between the two. I feel compelled to note that your response contains no justification for your previous comments’ assertions. I am inclined to think that my original assessment was spot on.
  - refurb 5y ago
    This isn’t an inaccurate description of the situation. What’s happening now is political. The discovery of the Kamloops graves have just elevated this topic in Canadians minds (and the world). The actual knowledge of Residential Schools is quite old. The First Nations are just being savvy about leveraging it for political power. And that’s not a criticism, that’s how things get done in a democracy - get the population on your side and politicians are powerless to say no.

soperj 5y ago

Really? Can you show me the current records for the Marieval Indian Residential School where they just found 751 unmarked graves?

defaultname 5y ago
They didn't find 751 unmarked graves. Just as they didn't find 215 graves at Kamloops. These numbers are in all probability many multiples exaggerated over the reality. And the catch 22 is that any actual anthropological analysis is going to be restricted by the very group publishing the exaggerated numbers. So expect at the next location for it to be...why not 10,000? The methodology to derive these numbers borders on farcical. However we know that loads of children died at these facilities. Tragically. It has never been secret. It never had to be secret, sadly because native children were considered effectively expendable. That is the pox. The current culture of, effectively, horseshit isn't making it better.
- soperj 5y ago
  Sorry, you do have a current record of how many children died at that school? or no?
  - defaultname 5y ago
    There are records from that school, yes. Are there enough to account for fictional numbers? No, why would there be? Do you understand how perilous counting "graves? with ground radar is? Note that the people who actually did the study are very careful with their language, noting that they found ground anomalies. The actual correlation with that and graves is incredibly loose.
    - brandon272 5y ago
      The "error rate" cited today by Cowessess First Nation and their partnered technical teams was 10% to 15%. The ground penetrating radar technology does not merely look for "ground anomalies", they work to specifically identify burial shafts, which tend to be rather distinctive. To say that they are merely counting any "anomaly" as a "fictional" grave is misrepresenting the work being done.
      - defaultname 5y ago
        It is positively impossible to cite such an error rate with any accuracy without doing an archeological analysis to determine the ground truth for a given site, which hasn't remotely been done (and in all likelihood would be blocked by the relevant players). Any claims to the contrary are simply a lie. Ground radar grave analysis has a significant degree of reading tea leaves. https://www.sensoft.ca/blog/cemetery-data-grave-locator-findar/ https://www.sensoft.ca/blog/cemetery-data-grave-locator-find... GPR is a great tool for law enforcement to find possible disturbed soil sites. Its use declines when you're doing mass surveys unless it is merely guiding a dig.
        brandon272 5y ago
        > which hasn't remotely been done How do you know this? You either have specific knowledge of the scans and any associated archeological analysis done in BC and Sask, or you don't. What specific information do you have about the lack of analysis done in the Balcarres area? The Sensoft link has nothing to do with what has been done in BC nor Sask.
- mrow84 5y ago
  Firstly, I can’t even begin to fathom how you could characterise people trying to determine what happened to their relatives, and where their remains might be, as a “culture of, effectively, horseshit”. Secondly, as far as I can tell you have made no substantive claims in this thread, your dismissals of the efforts in the article being backed solely by assertions, at a variety of levels of verbosity. If it is as important, as your many posts on the topic indicate you believe, to discredit the progress these people claim to have made, then I think you should try and provide some evidence to support your case.
  - defaultname 5y ago
    Ah, the "you've engaged in this discussion, ergo that invalidates your engagement in this discussion" ruse. Always a go to for a boring troll. "I can’t even begin to fathom" While there is zero sincerity in your trolling comment, for anyone else involved it's important to view all players as intelligent, rational, negotiating, and ultimately selfish human beings. It's important not to treat aboriginals as childlike, brainless caricatures like mrow84 does (e.g. the "noble savage").
    - mrow84 5y ago
      > "you've engaged in this discussion, ergo that invalidates your engagement in this discussion" I can’t figure out which part of my comment could be misinterpreted as having said this - please point it out to me so I can clarify my intent. > “there is zero sincerity in your … comment” I was very sincere in both of my points, those being, in summary, that your comments in the thread I replied into seem both insensitive and unevidenced. > “ it's important to view all players as intelligent, rational, negotiating, and ultimately selfish human beings. It's important not to treat aboriginals as childlike, brainless caricatures like mrow84 does (e.g. the "noble savage").” My only mention of people’s actions other than your own was to say that those searching for their relatives’ remains should probably not be characterised as engaging in a culture of horseshit. You can think what you like, but equating that with “treat(ing) aboriginals as childlike, brainless caricatures” seems like a bit of a stretch. If you think about it you might realise that there is quite a bit of ground between the two. I feel compelled to note that your response contains no justification for your previous comments’ assertions. I am inclined to think that my original assessment was spot on.
- refurb 5y ago
  This isn’t an inaccurate description of the situation. What’s happening now is political. The discovery of the Kamloops graves have just elevated this topic in Canadians minds (and the world). The actual knowledge of Residential Schools is quite old. The First Nations are just being savvy about leveraging it for political power. And that’s not a criticism, that’s how things get done in a democracy - get the population on your side and politicians are powerless to say no.