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I agree this was a open secret for decades, but I also think there are a large number of people who are learning about the horrifying things that went on at the

I agree this was a open secret for decades, but I also think there are a large number of people who are learning about the horrifying things that went on at the residential schools for the first time. The stated policy was nothing short of ethnocide and if it takes "discovering" these issues to finally have the national conversation and action that is so badly needed then let's discover everything there is to know. A problem cannot be fixed until everyone agrees there is a problem (see race relations in the US and climate change), so the more people who can be educated on what went on the better, because then we have a chance starting to heal (which will take generations).

corndoge 5y ago
As an outside observer, I don't understand what action you think is needed? Weren't these schools abolished?
- Roscius 5y ago
  There still are massive levels of racism particularly in policing and the justice system. Kids are still dying - https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thunder-bay/seven-youth-inquest-recommendations-year-2-work-1.5027621 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thunder-bay/seven-youth-inque...
- theluketaylor 5y ago
  The schools are gone, but the damage remains. While most closed in the 70s, there were a couple that lasted into the 90s! and there are many living survivors who continue to suffer from the trauma they experienced. The stated goal of the schools was to eliminate First Nations' culture and it was tragically highly effective. A culture doesn't recover from generations of ethnocide overnight.
  - nucleardog 5y ago
    > there were a couple that lasted into the 90s! While true, I think this is generally misleading without context. The federal government took control of the schools from the churches around 1970. By the mid-70s, control of most of them had been transferred to the band councils in some form or another, and a third of the staff at the schools had Indian status. By 1980, only 15 were still left operating. It's really hard to find any actual information on _what_ the schools that remained open were like in the 90s as most easily discoverable documentation is about beginning to unravel the abuses that had occurred prior, but what little I've ever been able to find sounds like they continued to operate as a school (presumably because the community needed a school), not as an implement of cultural genocide. This would seem to be backed up by some sources saying that some of the communities that housed the schools resisted their closure. Not that it's a particularly great situation, but it's likely that it was the only source of formal education available to them at the time and they didn't want to lose it, rather reform it. The current school situation on reservations is abysmal, so this is... understandable. None of this is to try and discount the atrocities that occurred at the schools, but I like to think saying "They operated until the mid-90s!" is a bit sensationalist, implying that the kidnapping, experimentation, abuse and murder was occurring at the same time Seinfeld and Friends were airing. I think there's more than enough to be horrified at here without implying a worse situation which may lead some people to discount some of the actual atrocities. That said, if you (or anyone) can dig up some information to refute any of this, I'm more than happy to hear it. I am genuinely interested and I have a lot of difficulty trying to find concrete information.
    - theluketaylor 5y ago
      These are very fair points. I likely should have given some additional context on the later operations. I will admit I was trying for some shock value since a non-Canadian outsider was asking. It's far too easy to think about the abuse as happening long in the past and therefore more of an abstract conversation. It's really a conversation about the ongoing trauma of survivors, some of whom are not actually that old.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- spatten 5y ago
  There are many people still living who were teachers and administrators at these schools. If we believe that this was genocide (and I think it's pretty obvious that it was), then they should be held accountable for their crimes. The fact that they haven't been speaks volumes.
lotsofpulp 5y ago
> A problem cannot be fixed until everyone agrees there is a problem (see race relations in the US and climate change), so the more people who can be educated on what went on the better, because then we have a chance starting to heal (which will take generations). There will not be a “fix” because a “fix” for the victims or descendants of victims would require massive wealth transfers, mostly from people who were not alive or making decisions at the time. And that is not going to be politically popular.
- reggieband 5y ago
  > a “fix” for the victims or descendants of victims would require massive wealth transfers My take on this, as a child of white immigrants, is that the Native Indian population would prefer something other than money. I think this kind of easy solution, just give them some money, is the type of solution that has been tried over and over without success. Even worse, we'll carve out some land and tell a tribe "this is yours" only to steal it back as soon as some commercial opportunity makes it valuable. In the medium sized town I live nearby, large tracts of native land sit unused as undeveloped trash pits surrounded by condo and townhouse developments. How are natives expected to live a traditional life off the land when on one side there are supermarkets and strip malls and on the other side suburbs? Eventually many bands cave in and throw up their own gated communities which they lease to rich white retirees. One corner of the remaining land gets to stand for a local band community centre and maybe a small section of housing for a few lucky band members. My own perception is that corruption within the bands is rife, with chiefs and their family/friends benefiting from the rent-seeking and pretty much everyone else in the band losing out. I think the harsh reality is that the kind of society and life that Native Indians dream of cannot be lived alongside modern industrial capitalism. It isn't just forestry, mining, oil and gas pipelines ruining their habitat. It is the very root of capitalist consumerist culture that is incompatible with the very conception of life they wish to maintain. You can't make that go away with money or by temporarily relocating them. It would require a cultural shift that would alter every aspect of Canadian life. The funny thing is, we're all just jumping on to the global warming bandwagon. But the only communities I see taking environmental stewardship seriously are the Native Indians. They've been literally screaming at the top of their lungs about the destruction we are wreaking to this planet for decades. And instead of listening to them we just pressure them until they give in and accept whatever bribe we muster alongside a weak apology for past transgressions. And then they retreat into depression and alcoholism. It's a heart-breaking cycle and more money (or "wealth transfer") isn't the solution.
rscoots 5y ago
Ahh yes, generating a large righteous and hungry movement with no good ideas in place. What could possibly go wrong? I'm sure there are initiatives and policy changes the govt is pursuing in this space. We'd do well to learn about them if we do truly care.

corndoge 5y ago

As an outside observer, I don't understand what action you think is needed? Weren't these schools abolished?

Roscius 5y ago
There still are massive levels of racism particularly in policing and the justice system. Kids are still dying - https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thunder-bay/seven-youth-inquest-recommendations-year-2-work-1.5027621 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thunder-bay/seven-youth-inque...
theluketaylor 5y ago
The schools are gone, but the damage remains. While most closed in the 70s, there were a couple that lasted into the 90s! and there are many living survivors who continue to suffer from the trauma they experienced. The stated goal of the schools was to eliminate First Nations' culture and it was tragically highly effective. A culture doesn't recover from generations of ethnocide overnight.
- nucleardog 5y ago
  > there were a couple that lasted into the 90s! While true, I think this is generally misleading without context. The federal government took control of the schools from the churches around 1970. By the mid-70s, control of most of them had been transferred to the band councils in some form or another, and a third of the staff at the schools had Indian status. By 1980, only 15 were still left operating. It's really hard to find any actual information on _what_ the schools that remained open were like in the 90s as most easily discoverable documentation is about beginning to unravel the abuses that had occurred prior, but what little I've ever been able to find sounds like they continued to operate as a school (presumably because the community needed a school), not as an implement of cultural genocide. This would seem to be backed up by some sources saying that some of the communities that housed the schools resisted their closure. Not that it's a particularly great situation, but it's likely that it was the only source of formal education available to them at the time and they didn't want to lose it, rather reform it. The current school situation on reservations is abysmal, so this is... understandable. None of this is to try and discount the atrocities that occurred at the schools, but I like to think saying "They operated until the mid-90s!" is a bit sensationalist, implying that the kidnapping, experimentation, abuse and murder was occurring at the same time Seinfeld and Friends were airing. I think there's more than enough to be horrified at here without implying a worse situation which may lead some people to discount some of the actual atrocities. That said, if you (or anyone) can dig up some information to refute any of this, I'm more than happy to hear it. I am genuinely interested and I have a lot of difficulty trying to find concrete information.
  - theluketaylor 5y ago
    These are very fair points. I likely should have given some additional context on the later operations. I will admit I was trying for some shock value since a non-Canadian outsider was asking. It's far too easy to think about the abuse as happening long in the past and therefore more of an abstract conversation. It's really a conversation about the ongoing trauma of survivors, some of whom are not actually that old.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
spatten 5y ago
There are many people still living who were teachers and administrators at these schools. If we believe that this was genocide (and I think it's pretty obvious that it was), then they should be held accountable for their crimes. The fact that they haven't been speaks volumes.

lotsofpulp 5y ago

> A problem cannot be fixed until everyone agrees there is a problem (see race relations in the US and climate change), so the more people who can be educated on what went on the better, because then we have a chance starting to heal (which will take generations). There will not be a “fix” because a “fix” for the victims or descendants of victims would require massive wealth transfers, mostly from people who were not alive or making decisions at the time. And that is not going to be politically popular.

reggieband 5y ago
> a “fix” for the victims or descendants of victims would require massive wealth transfers My take on this, as a child of white immigrants, is that the Native Indian population would prefer something other than money. I think this kind of easy solution, just give them some money, is the type of solution that has been tried over and over without success. Even worse, we'll carve out some land and tell a tribe "this is yours" only to steal it back as soon as some commercial opportunity makes it valuable. In the medium sized town I live nearby, large tracts of native land sit unused as undeveloped trash pits surrounded by condo and townhouse developments. How are natives expected to live a traditional life off the land when on one side there are supermarkets and strip malls and on the other side suburbs? Eventually many bands cave in and throw up their own gated communities which they lease to rich white retirees. One corner of the remaining land gets to stand for a local band community centre and maybe a small section of housing for a few lucky band members. My own perception is that corruption within the bands is rife, with chiefs and their family/friends benefiting from the rent-seeking and pretty much everyone else in the band losing out. I think the harsh reality is that the kind of society and life that Native Indians dream of cannot be lived alongside modern industrial capitalism. It isn't just forestry, mining, oil and gas pipelines ruining their habitat. It is the very root of capitalist consumerist culture that is incompatible with the very conception of life they wish to maintain. You can't make that go away with money or by temporarily relocating them. It would require a cultural shift that would alter every aspect of Canadian life. The funny thing is, we're all just jumping on to the global warming bandwagon. But the only communities I see taking environmental stewardship seriously are the Native Indians. They've been literally screaming at the top of their lungs about the destruction we are wreaking to this planet for decades. And instead of listening to them we just pressure them until they give in and accept whatever bribe we muster alongside a weak apology for past transgressions. And then they retreat into depression and alcoholism. It's a heart-breaking cycle and more money (or "wealth transfer") isn't the solution.

rscoots 5y ago

Ahh yes, generating a large righteous and hungry movement with no good ideas in place. What could possibly go wrong? I'm sure there are initiatives and policy changes the govt is pursuing in this space. We'd do well to learn about them if we do truly care.