5 ms·

Some good advice here. The part about highlighting experience resonated with me. A lot of CVs I see just list the generic duties of each role, not what the ca

Some good advice here. The part about highlighting experience resonated with me. A lot of CVs I see just list the generic duties of each role, not what the candidate achieved in them.

rahimnathwani 5y ago
Among the things I look for when interviewing PMs: - did they have an impact in the past roles? - will they help us be excellent, by finding and embedding good ideas/practices/tactics from elsewhere? If a PM in 2021 doesn't list achievements on their CV, then they: - haven't bothered to Google something like 'how to create a great CV', or - couldn't separate the great answers from the noise, or - decided their accomplishments weren't worth listing. Bad sign.
- SQueeeeeL 5y ago
  Glad we're asking PMs to chase resume trends from random blogs instead of just interviewing well and being the right fit for the job.
  - rahimnathwani 5y ago
    First, showing achievements on a CV isn't a trend. Second, you can't "just interview well" if your CV doesn't give someone an inkling you might be able to do the job. Third, "being the right fit for the job" includes being able to learn and being able to communicate. A CV that doesn't list accomplishments signals negatively for both of those.
    - SQueeeeeL 5y ago
      Well, I've never heard of listing "achievements" on your resume, and all the articles I see on Google related to this are from Winter and Spring 2021, so at least that verbage is a current fad. I'd consider someone with a pretty trendy CV to be a net negative, it means they endlessly focus on whatever is the latest thing, and not focusing on core principles, but many companies just want to hire people who spend hours optimizing minutiae and ignoring substantial fundamental issues; so this is actually rock solid advice!
      - ghaff 5y ago
        Listing achievements/accomplishments/results/whatever, as specifically as possible, has been absolutely standard resume advice for decades. Maybe "achievements" is a trendy term. I don't know as I haven't updated my resume for over 10 years. But the point is that it matters more that you accomplished something specific than that you had this job.
        SQueeeeeL 5y ago
        Oh yeah, that's definitely true! I just get tired of seeing resume formats constantly cycling every year around some vague "trend". People adding headers and sections to their resumes outside of a simple straightforward standard, weird resume advice blogs and on YouTube are probably just desperate for constant content.
      - rahimnathwani 5y ago
        'I've never heard of listing "achievements" on your resume, and all the articles I see on Google related to this are from Winter and Spring 2021' The advice is good now, but it was also good 15+ years ago. The 2004 edition of 'Cover letter magic' contains a heading "Sales and Merchandising: What You Have Accomplished". It says: "You can most positively position your qualifications by defining the scope of your responsibilities and then highlighting your achievements and successes. That means not just saying what you did, but also how well you did it." Note the use of the words 'accomplished', 'achievements', 'successes'. I'm sorry I don't have any older CV books handy.
      - ska 5y ago
        > Well, I've never heard of listing "achievements" on your resume This has been standard advice for decades. Not necessarily in a section labelled "Achievements" but nonetheless, very orthodox.
  - JohnWhigham 5y ago
    OP's blog post said they went through 814 applicants for a PM role. You need some sort of starting screener.
  - glenngillen 5y ago
    You need to get an interview first. Once you get to that stage, you’re absolutely right!
- kritiko 5y ago
  How do you distinguish impact from lack of impact? And how do you validate the PM was actually responsible for that impact?
  - rahimnathwani 5y ago
    I don't understand question #1. Maybe you can rephrase? #2 requires a mix of (i) reference interviews, and (ii) digging into details during candidate interviews. Read these books to learn how: * Who: https://www.amazon.com/Who-Geoff-Smart/dp/0345504194 https://www.amazon.com/Who-Geoff-Smart/dp/0345504194 * Topgrading: https://www.amazon.com/Topgrading-3rd-Promoting-Turbocharges-Performance/dp/1591845262 https://www.amazon.com/Topgrading-3rd-Promoting-Turbocharges...
    - kritiko 5y ago
      Thanks for responding. Question 1 is basically how do you define impact? What does a candidate who has not made an impact (or made a negative impact) look like in an interview? The reason I ask is that it strikes me that there are so many intangibles in business outcomes. I'm also curious about how you conduct and benchmark your reference interviewing - I have given lengthy reference interviews for colleagues taking executive roles, but those references were extremely rose-colored. There's no incentive for me to be candid.
      - mason55 5y ago
        (Not the OP) One thing I always ask about but find to be especially helpful with less technical roles is to go into the whole process. Start with what they accomplished but keep digging. What other options did you consider? What were the trade offs? How did you decide your approach was best? What lessons did you learn and how did you apply them in the future? Those questions can all be BSed but at a certain point if you have good answers for them then you at least know what you’re talking about even if it’s all made up. Then I usually combine with some kind of concrete exercise that relates to the actual job. For product managers I like to give some kind of product strategy (either something we’ve done or something we’d never do to avoid people feeling like they are doing free work) and have them put together a product proposal. The more junior they are the more guidance they get and the more it’s a test of turning a discussion of features into clear requirement. If they’re more senior it’s about turning strategy into a clear product. The second part has caught a number of people who said the right things but couldn’t execute, or at least not in a way that was compatible with our culture.
aedocw 5y ago
This is pretty good guidance on crafting a solid resume for a product manager: https://www.productlessons.xyz/article/product-manager-resume-with-examples-keywords https://www.productlessons.xyz/article/product-manager-resum...
MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
I've never known about this and never once had someone mention it to me. Which is exactly why I'm going to be doing it now.

Some good advice here. The part about highlighting experience resonated with me. A lot of CVs I see just list the generic duties of each role, not what the candidate achieved in them.

rahimnathwani 5y ago

Among the things I look for when interviewing PMs: - did they have an impact in the past roles? - will they help us be excellent, by finding and embedding good ideas/practices/tactics from elsewhere? If a PM in 2021 doesn't list achievements on their CV, then they: - haven't bothered to Google something like 'how to create a great CV', or - couldn't separate the great answers from the noise, or - decided their accomplishments weren't worth listing. Bad sign.

SQueeeeeL 5y ago
Glad we're asking PMs to chase resume trends from random blogs instead of just interviewing well and being the right fit for the job.
- rahimnathwani 5y ago
  First, showing achievements on a CV isn't a trend. Second, you can't "just interview well" if your CV doesn't give someone an inkling you might be able to do the job. Third, "being the right fit for the job" includes being able to learn and being able to communicate. A CV that doesn't list accomplishments signals negatively for both of those.
  - SQueeeeeL 5y ago
    Well, I've never heard of listing "achievements" on your resume, and all the articles I see on Google related to this are from Winter and Spring 2021, so at least that verbage is a current fad. I'd consider someone with a pretty trendy CV to be a net negative, it means they endlessly focus on whatever is the latest thing, and not focusing on core principles, but many companies just want to hire people who spend hours optimizing minutiae and ignoring substantial fundamental issues; so this is actually rock solid advice!
    - ghaff 5y ago
      Listing achievements/accomplishments/results/whatever, as specifically as possible, has been absolutely standard resume advice for decades. Maybe "achievements" is a trendy term. I don't know as I haven't updated my resume for over 10 years. But the point is that it matters more that you accomplished something specific than that you had this job.
      - SQueeeeeL 5y ago
        Oh yeah, that's definitely true! I just get tired of seeing resume formats constantly cycling every year around some vague "trend". People adding headers and sections to their resumes outside of a simple straightforward standard, weird resume advice blogs and on YouTube are probably just desperate for constant content.
    - rahimnathwani 5y ago
      'I've never heard of listing "achievements" on your resume, and all the articles I see on Google related to this are from Winter and Spring 2021' The advice is good now, but it was also good 15+ years ago. The 2004 edition of 'Cover letter magic' contains a heading "Sales and Merchandising: What You Have Accomplished". It says: "You can most positively position your qualifications by defining the scope of your responsibilities and then highlighting your achievements and successes. That means not just saying what you did, but also how well you did it." Note the use of the words 'accomplished', 'achievements', 'successes'. I'm sorry I don't have any older CV books handy.
    - ska 5y ago
      > Well, I've never heard of listing "achievements" on your resume This has been standard advice for decades. Not necessarily in a section labelled "Achievements" but nonetheless, very orthodox.
- JohnWhigham 5y ago
  OP's blog post said they went through 814 applicants for a PM role. You need some sort of starting screener.
- glenngillen 5y ago
  You need to get an interview first. Once you get to that stage, you’re absolutely right!
kritiko 5y ago
How do you distinguish impact from lack of impact? And how do you validate the PM was actually responsible for that impact?
- rahimnathwani 5y ago
  I don't understand question #1. Maybe you can rephrase? #2 requires a mix of (i) reference interviews, and (ii) digging into details during candidate interviews. Read these books to learn how: * Who: https://www.amazon.com/Who-Geoff-Smart/dp/0345504194 https://www.amazon.com/Who-Geoff-Smart/dp/0345504194 * Topgrading: https://www.amazon.com/Topgrading-3rd-Promoting-Turbocharges-Performance/dp/1591845262 https://www.amazon.com/Topgrading-3rd-Promoting-Turbocharges...
  - kritiko 5y ago
    Thanks for responding. Question 1 is basically how do you define impact? What does a candidate who has not made an impact (or made a negative impact) look like in an interview? The reason I ask is that it strikes me that there are so many intangibles in business outcomes. I'm also curious about how you conduct and benchmark your reference interviewing - I have given lengthy reference interviews for colleagues taking executive roles, but those references were extremely rose-colored. There's no incentive for me to be candid.
    - mason55 5y ago
      (Not the OP) One thing I always ask about but find to be especially helpful with less technical roles is to go into the whole process. Start with what they accomplished but keep digging. What other options did you consider? What were the trade offs? How did you decide your approach was best? What lessons did you learn and how did you apply them in the future? Those questions can all be BSed but at a certain point if you have good answers for them then you at least know what you’re talking about even if it’s all made up. Then I usually combine with some kind of concrete exercise that relates to the actual job. For product managers I like to give some kind of product strategy (either something we’ve done or something we’d never do to avoid people feeling like they are doing free work) and have them put together a product proposal. The more junior they are the more guidance they get and the more it’s a test of turning a discussion of features into clear requirement. If they’re more senior it’s about turning strategy into a clear product. The second part has caught a number of people who said the right things but couldn’t execute, or at least not in a way that was compatible with our culture.

aedocw 5y ago

This is pretty good guidance on crafting a solid resume for a product manager: https://www.productlessons.xyz/article/product-manager-resume-with-examples-keywords https://www.productlessons.xyz/article/product-manager-resum...

MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago

I've never known about this and never once had someone mention it to me. Which is exactly why I'm going to be doing it now.