4 ms·

Remove the Indian Act. Integration of aboriginal culture into the Canadian education system. Not just offering an aboriginal studies class, but truly taking th

by neom 5y ago

Remove the Indian Act. Integration of aboriginal culture into the Canadian education system. Not just offering an aboriginal studies class, but truly taking the native perspective into the education system. Most native people I've talked with don't take advantage of their free educational affordances because they don't want to continue to be whitewashed/don't feel comfortable in institutions that don't understand their culture/are understandably extremely scared of "education" in Canada given the residential school system. Including traditional aboriginal health practises into the health care system, both mandating and expanding the services that are covered by our national insurance, but allowing a medicine man to charge OHIP for their time performing service. People don't die on reserves because they're lazy drunks(as is often portrayed), they die because they don't trust the Canadian health care system. Adding Ojibway as an official language (either federally, or mandate the provinces provide services in the predominant native language of that territory). Guaranteed seats in the Canadian parliament. All of that on top of continuing the repreve on on taxation, and in my likely unpopular opinion, a reexamination of reparation. What will it accomplish? It will only serve to minimally undo the damage that was inflicted upon these people by colonialists, my forefathers.

theluketaylor 5y ago
I also want to see us pour far more resources and money into First Nations' lead preservation of as many languages as we can. Without native speakers languages die and so does the culture that produced them.
hluska 5y ago
I'd vote for you. The Indian Act is a truly messed up document with all these clauses that ultimately remove status from people. I'd be incredibly happy if they removed it, provided it was replaced with something designed by Indigenous people for Indigenous people. I'm from Saskatchewan where an almost unbelievable number of people believe Indigenous people pay no taxes. That's not true at all but that sure fuels a lot of racism. Under the Indian Act, a person with status does not pay federal income tax on any money they earn on reserve. Some reserves have almost no opportunity so it ends up being a hollow benefit. I figure we have to either teach non-Indigenous people how the Indian Act really works, replace it entirely, build strong economies on reserves or extend the tax free status to any employment in Canada. I love the idea of integrating Indigenous culture and health practices into our system and making them available for everyone. The First Nations University of Canada is a start. Sadly, if you watch the press conference in an hour, the Chief of the Cowessess First Nation (Cadmus Delorme) graduated from FNUniv, was heavily involved in their students association, hosted Prince Charles and Camilla when they were here a decade ago and then worked in Student Recruitment. It is a wonderful place... I'd also like to see a more interesting path for Indigenous kids who are being released from the criminal justice system. In my city, when kids are released, one of the biggest programs teaches them how to be short order cooks and dishwashers. That's fine, but it ignores that some of these kids are absolutely brilliant and can do so much more. We could have art based programs, tech based programs, teach them OSCP or any of a wide variety of possibilities. But it's pretty hard on a kid to go from making $1,000 a day selling drugs to $12 an hour slanging french fries. I think if our system acknowledged their talent and potential the world would only get a little better. I'd also love if they expanded Gladue factors in criminal justice sentencing, as well as started using more traditional Indigenous forms of restorative justice. Sentencing circles for example are not 'going easy' on crime. They're hard on crime but in a way that's distinctly Indigenous and that fits in with their entire culture, religion and belief system. On a more personal level, I wish that everyone in Canada was as open about referring to colonialists as their forefathers as you are. Right away, just that small bit of personal responsibility could change the tone of dialogue. And finally, honestly friend, your reparations idea will be unpopular, but you are 100% correct. It's necessary...
- neom 5y ago
  I'm a 6th generation Canadian on my father's side, my mother immigrated from Scotland. I'm about as colonialist as they come. I agree with everything you said. I just wanted to add one thing... I don't hold my views out of some misplaced or misguided post-colonial white guilt. I hold my views because of the reality of the situation. I cannot stand the "I will not pay for what happened generations before me" stance, I just cannot tolerate it. Even if one was to feel that, it so illogical with regards to the reality on the floor in Canada that I just cannot entertain it. If we do not do the best we can to back ourselves out of forced entry into an existing "Canadian" society, and then try to reintegrate with the guidance and permission of the natives, the future of Canada, in my opinion, is not at all bright. I realize some reading this may find my perspective extreme, nevertheless, I hold this belief deeply.
  - hluska 5y ago
    I don't think it's extreme at all. Honestly, I'm touched by your words - you're 100% correct, I love your perspective and you are an absolutely wonderful person. This conversation has been an absolute honour. My Dad was in the RCMP. I was born on reserve and spent a large part of my youth on and around reserve. My Dad did some bad things and his uniform is certainly not absolved of guilt. A lot of my privilege came because of his job. It's quite sad to know how much I've benefited from white privilege and this entire awful system. I will happily pay for what happened. My privilege is as obvious as oxygen and I have gained tremendous advantages as the result of an awful system. I will happily pay, never stop paying and advocate until I'm blue in the face. Worst case scenario, we might change some minds. Best case scenario, we might change some worlds. Thank you friend - you're a wonderful person and I genuinely appreciate this support and fellowship. I just saw a press conference where they announced 751 possible graves in Cowessess. That's 751 missing Kookums and Mooshums...:( I really needed to read your words.
    - 908B64B197 5y ago
      > My Dad was in the RCMP. I was born on reserve and spent a large part of my youth on and around reserve. My Dad did some bad things and his uniform is certainly not absolved of guilt. A lot of my privilege came because of his job. It's quite sad to know how much I've benefited from white privilege and this entire awful system. > I will happily pay for what happened. My privilege is as obvious as oxygen and I have gained tremendous advantages as the result of an awful system. I will happily pay, never stop paying and advocate until I'm blue in the face. Worst case scenario, we might change some minds. Best case scenario, we might change some worlds. Are you willing to give-up your father's inheritance?
stackedinserter 5y ago
> taking the native perspective into the education system > Including traditional aboriginal health practises into the health care system Thanks, but no thanks. > People don't die on reserves because they're lazy drunks(as is often portrayed), they die because they don't trust the Canadian health care system Interesting take. When a white person doesn't trust "official healthcare", they are bigots/antiwaxers/idiots/you name it. But if they belong to FN, it turns out to be a noble thing. All of a sudden, "we've been doing it for hundreds of years" trumps science.
- beerandt 5y ago
  Same with education. It's horrible that these children were subjected to a sterilized, culture killing national/standardized education, and killed their individual culture. Also, opposing nationalized education curriculums for everyone else means you're an evolution denier, hate minority children, and probably still think we should teach math with numbers.
hervature 5y ago
I'm sorry, but many of these ideas are nonsensical and ill-defined. > Integration of aboriginal culture into the Canadian education system. No thank you. I prefer the education to be secular. At this point, we have many more people from other cultures. So many cultures that integrating all of them into the education system becomes contradictory. The issues that natives have with the education system have nothing to do with the content. In fact, having "aboriginal first" education on reservations might seem like a feel-good idea that everyone wants but actually sets them up for failure by presenting a huge barrier to entry when going to normal universities. The exact "whitewashing" barrier you are talking about. > Including traditional aboriginal health practises into the health care system [...] they die because they don't trust the Canadian health care system. Sure, as long as the treatment being offered has at least an iota of scientific evidence of efficacy. > Adding Ojibway as an official language (either federally, or mandate the provinces provide services in the predominant native language of that territory). Just sounds ridiculous when Ojibway is not even the most spoken aboriginal language. Less than 1% of the population is a has an aboriginal language as a mother tongue. Making any of these languages as an official language is just an extremely costly virtue signal that doesn't actually help anyone. > Guaranteed seats in the Canadian parliament. Guaranteeing seats, for any group of people, is always a bad idea and should not even be entertained. Look at the demographics [1]. 5% by population but have something closer to 6% of federal districts where they have the plurality of the vote. Seems like the system is working. > and in my likely unpopular opinion, a reexamination of reparation. Funnily enough, that's the only thing I agree with you. Finding a way forward via their input and not excluding them by chatting on an online forum. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples_in_Canada#Urban_population https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples_in_Canada#U...
- neom 5y ago
  While I don't agree with your perspectives, I'm certainly not going to call them nonsense or ill defined. I would not expect you to write a novel on hackernews laying out the full nuances of your thoughts, and I'd appreciate you'd extend me the same courtesy. Two nitpicks in your reply if I may. I would not propose on-reserve of first nations universities or anything like that, I would propose a total re-architecture of what you called 'normal' universities in collaboration with the first nations peoples. I mentioned Ojibway because in the discussion around this, there has been a feeling in the first nations that a push towards a wider adoption of Ojibway might be acceptable. However, I couched it in the event that was not the case, hence suggesting giving the power to the provinces.
Tiktaalik 5y ago
The notion of simply removing the Indian act is too simplistic and a flawed idea because of the fact that so many rights that Indigenous people have stem from the act. Removing the act would remove their rights. Ending the Indian Act was proposed decades ago by Trudeau Senior in the famous White Paper, and this idea was panned by indigenous groups. The Indian Act needs to go away in general terms, but it will be part of the more complex task of creating real First Nations governance in this country.
- neom 5y ago
  "The notion of simply removing the Indian act is too simplistic and a flawed idea" "The Indian Act needs to go away in general terms" So we're saying the same thing and you're arguing a moot nuance against yours? Ok...
  - Tiktaalik 5y ago
    Essentially what I was trying to say was that a "White Paper" style repeal of the Indian Act is not appropriate. (That may not have been what you were suggesting, but I'll point out nonetheless that this 'solution' has already been rejected by First Nations) The more complex thing that needs to happen is that elements of the Indian Act need to be removed while also retaining the rights that the Indian Act grants First Nations. (As an aside: A good book about the deep flaws and contradictions of the Indian Act is https://www.ictinc.ca/books/21-things-you-may-not-know-about-the-indian-act https://www.ictinc.ca/books/21-things-you-may-not-know-about...)
    - neom 5y ago
      You responded to me and told me that removing the indian act is a simplistic perspective. You don't think educated people capable of having conversations at this level might comprehend that? I've read the paper, I said nothing about it, I simply said it needs to be removed. We agree, you're being a pedant for the sake of pedantics.
      - 5y ago
rohitb91 5y ago
There are a hell of a lot dying from being drunks, sniffing gas, and doing drugs. What are you talking about? How is bringing indigenous medicine, something incompatible with modern medicine okay but if someone wants to practice homeopathy or Chinese medicine and bill the government for it not okay?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- dang 5y ago
  Flamewar comments like this will get you banned here. No more of this, please. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

by neom 5y ago

theluketaylor 5y ago

I also want to see us pour far more resources and money into First Nations' lead preservation of as many languages as we can. Without native speakers languages die and so does the culture that produced them.

hluska 5y ago

I'd vote for you. The Indian Act is a truly messed up document with all these clauses that ultimately remove status from people. I'd be incredibly happy if they removed it, provided it was replaced with something designed by Indigenous people for Indigenous people. I'm from Saskatchewan where an almost unbelievable number of people believe Indigenous people pay no taxes. That's not true at all but that sure fuels a lot of racism. Under the Indian Act, a person with status does not pay federal income tax on any money they earn on reserve. Some reserves have almost no opportunity so it ends up being a hollow benefit. I figure we have to either teach non-Indigenous people how the Indian Act really works, replace it entirely, build strong economies on reserves or extend the tax free status to any employment in Canada. I love the idea of integrating Indigenous culture and health practices into our system and making them available for everyone. The First Nations University of Canada is a start. Sadly, if you watch the press conference in an hour, the Chief of the Cowessess First Nation (Cadmus Delorme) graduated from FNUniv, was heavily involved in their students association, hosted Prince Charles and Camilla when they were here a decade ago and then worked in Student Recruitment. It is a wonderful place... I'd also like to see a more interesting path for Indigenous kids who are being released from the criminal justice system. In my city, when kids are released, one of the biggest programs teaches them how to be short order cooks and dishwashers. That's fine, but it ignores that some of these kids are absolutely brilliant and can do so much more. We could have art based programs, tech based programs, teach them OSCP or any of a wide variety of possibilities. But it's pretty hard on a kid to go from making $1,000 a day selling drugs to $12 an hour slanging french fries. I think if our system acknowledged their talent and potential the world would only get a little better. I'd also love if they expanded Gladue factors in criminal justice sentencing, as well as started using more traditional Indigenous forms of restorative justice. Sentencing circles for example are not 'going easy' on crime. They're hard on crime but in a way that's distinctly Indigenous and that fits in with their entire culture, religion and belief system. On a more personal level, I wish that everyone in Canada was as open about referring to colonialists as their forefathers as you are. Right away, just that small bit of personal responsibility could change the tone of dialogue. And finally, honestly friend, your reparations idea will be unpopular, but you are 100% correct. It's necessary...

neom 5y ago
I'm a 6th generation Canadian on my father's side, my mother immigrated from Scotland. I'm about as colonialist as they come. I agree with everything you said. I just wanted to add one thing... I don't hold my views out of some misplaced or misguided post-colonial white guilt. I hold my views because of the reality of the situation. I cannot stand the "I will not pay for what happened generations before me" stance, I just cannot tolerate it. Even if one was to feel that, it so illogical with regards to the reality on the floor in Canada that I just cannot entertain it. If we do not do the best we can to back ourselves out of forced entry into an existing "Canadian" society, and then try to reintegrate with the guidance and permission of the natives, the future of Canada, in my opinion, is not at all bright. I realize some reading this may find my perspective extreme, nevertheless, I hold this belief deeply.
- hluska 5y ago
  I don't think it's extreme at all. Honestly, I'm touched by your words - you're 100% correct, I love your perspective and you are an absolutely wonderful person. This conversation has been an absolute honour. My Dad was in the RCMP. I was born on reserve and spent a large part of my youth on and around reserve. My Dad did some bad things and his uniform is certainly not absolved of guilt. A lot of my privilege came because of his job. It's quite sad to know how much I've benefited from white privilege and this entire awful system. I will happily pay for what happened. My privilege is as obvious as oxygen and I have gained tremendous advantages as the result of an awful system. I will happily pay, never stop paying and advocate until I'm blue in the face. Worst case scenario, we might change some minds. Best case scenario, we might change some worlds. Thank you friend - you're a wonderful person and I genuinely appreciate this support and fellowship. I just saw a press conference where they announced 751 possible graves in Cowessess. That's 751 missing Kookums and Mooshums...:( I really needed to read your words.
  - 908B64B197 5y ago
    > My Dad was in the RCMP. I was born on reserve and spent a large part of my youth on and around reserve. My Dad did some bad things and his uniform is certainly not absolved of guilt. A lot of my privilege came because of his job. It's quite sad to know how much I've benefited from white privilege and this entire awful system. > I will happily pay for what happened. My privilege is as obvious as oxygen and I have gained tremendous advantages as the result of an awful system. I will happily pay, never stop paying and advocate until I'm blue in the face. Worst case scenario, we might change some minds. Best case scenario, we might change some worlds. Are you willing to give-up your father's inheritance?

stackedinserter 5y ago

> taking the native perspective into the education system > Including traditional aboriginal health practises into the health care system Thanks, but no thanks. > People don't die on reserves because they're lazy drunks(as is often portrayed), they die because they don't trust the Canadian health care system Interesting take. When a white person doesn't trust "official healthcare", they are bigots/antiwaxers/idiots/you name it. But if they belong to FN, it turns out to be a noble thing. All of a sudden, "we've been doing it for hundreds of years" trumps science.

beerandt 5y ago
Same with education. It's horrible that these children were subjected to a sterilized, culture killing national/standardized education, and killed their individual culture. Also, opposing nationalized education curriculums for everyone else means you're an evolution denier, hate minority children, and probably still think we should teach math with numbers.

hervature 5y ago

I'm sorry, but many of these ideas are nonsensical and ill-defined. > Integration of aboriginal culture into the Canadian education system. No thank you. I prefer the education to be secular. At this point, we have many more people from other cultures. So many cultures that integrating all of them into the education system becomes contradictory. The issues that natives have with the education system have nothing to do with the content. In fact, having "aboriginal first" education on reservations might seem like a feel-good idea that everyone wants but actually sets them up for failure by presenting a huge barrier to entry when going to normal universities. The exact "whitewashing" barrier you are talking about. > Including traditional aboriginal health practises into the health care system [...] they die because they don't trust the Canadian health care system. Sure, as long as the treatment being offered has at least an iota of scientific evidence of efficacy. > Adding Ojibway as an official language (either federally, or mandate the provinces provide services in the predominant native language of that territory). Just sounds ridiculous when Ojibway is not even the most spoken aboriginal language. Less than 1% of the population is a has an aboriginal language as a mother tongue. Making any of these languages as an official language is just an extremely costly virtue signal that doesn't actually help anyone. > Guaranteed seats in the Canadian parliament. Guaranteeing seats, for any group of people, is always a bad idea and should not even be entertained. Look at the demographics [1]. 5% by population but have something closer to 6% of federal districts where they have the plurality of the vote. Seems like the system is working. > and in my likely unpopular opinion, a reexamination of reparation. Funnily enough, that's the only thing I agree with you. Finding a way forward via their input and not excluding them by chatting on an online forum. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples_in_Canada#Urban_population https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples_in_Canada#U...

neom 5y ago
While I don't agree with your perspectives, I'm certainly not going to call them nonsense or ill defined. I would not expect you to write a novel on hackernews laying out the full nuances of your thoughts, and I'd appreciate you'd extend me the same courtesy. Two nitpicks in your reply if I may. I would not propose on-reserve of first nations universities or anything like that, I would propose a total re-architecture of what you called 'normal' universities in collaboration with the first nations peoples. I mentioned Ojibway because in the discussion around this, there has been a feeling in the first nations that a push towards a wider adoption of Ojibway might be acceptable. However, I couched it in the event that was not the case, hence suggesting giving the power to the provinces.

Tiktaalik 5y ago

The notion of simply removing the Indian act is too simplistic and a flawed idea because of the fact that so many rights that Indigenous people have stem from the act. Removing the act would remove their rights. Ending the Indian Act was proposed decades ago by Trudeau Senior in the famous White Paper, and this idea was panned by indigenous groups. The Indian Act needs to go away in general terms, but it will be part of the more complex task of creating real First Nations governance in this country.

neom 5y ago
"The notion of simply removing the Indian act is too simplistic and a flawed idea" "The Indian Act needs to go away in general terms" So we're saying the same thing and you're arguing a moot nuance against yours? Ok...
- Tiktaalik 5y ago
  Essentially what I was trying to say was that a "White Paper" style repeal of the Indian Act is not appropriate. (That may not have been what you were suggesting, but I'll point out nonetheless that this 'solution' has already been rejected by First Nations) The more complex thing that needs to happen is that elements of the Indian Act need to be removed while also retaining the rights that the Indian Act grants First Nations. (As an aside: A good book about the deep flaws and contradictions of the Indian Act is https://www.ictinc.ca/books/21-things-you-may-not-know-about-the-indian-act https://www.ictinc.ca/books/21-things-you-may-not-know-about...)
  - neom 5y ago
    You responded to me and told me that removing the indian act is a simplistic perspective. You don't think educated people capable of having conversations at this level might comprehend that? I've read the paper, I said nothing about it, I simply said it needs to be removed. We agree, you're being a pedant for the sake of pedantics.
    - 5y ago

rohitb91 5y ago

There are a hell of a lot dying from being drunks, sniffing gas, and doing drugs. What are you talking about? How is bringing indigenous medicine, something incompatible with modern medicine okay but if someone wants to practice homeopathy or Chinese medicine and bill the government for it not okay?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
dang 5y ago
Flamewar comments like this will get you banned here. No more of this, please. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html