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Sitting member of Congress: "No more policing, incarceration, and militarization. It can't be reformed." https://mobile.twitter.com/RashidaTlaib/status/1381745

Sitting member of Congress: "No more policing, incarceration, and militarization. It can't be reformed." https://mobile.twitter.com/RashidaTlaib/status/1381745303997534216 https://mobile.twitter.com/RashidaTlaib/status/1381745303997... Sitting member of Congress: "We can’t reform this." https://mobile.twitter.com/AyannaPressley/status/1381702744310943750 https://mobile.twitter.com/AyannaPressley/status/13817027443... Activist with 475k followers whose name is currently: "DEFUND & ABOLISH POLICE" https://mobile.twitter.com/BreeNewsome https://mobile.twitter.com/BreeNewsome Ben & Jerrys: "This system can’t be reformed." https://twitter.com/benandjerrys/status/1381743962558504969 https://twitter.com/benandjerrys/status/1381743962558504969 When activists say they want to abolish the police, they “100%” mean they want no more police, Noor says. https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2020/07/17/black-lives-matter-activist https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2020/07/17/black-lives-matte... NYT op ed: "Yes, We Mean Literally Abolish the Police" https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abolish-defund-police.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abol...

ceejayoz 5y ago
Highlighting "a very very small niche" of politicians/activists isn't really debunking the "a very very small niche of the police reform community" claim. I like Ayanna Pressley and Rashida Tlaib, but they can hardly be claimed to be the mainstream portion of Congress, or even Congressional Democrats.
- MikeUt 5y ago
  Perhaps they should have chosen a slogan where the dictionary definition differs from the opinion of "a very very small niche".
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/defund https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/defun... "to stop providing money or as much money to pay for something"
    - MikeUt 5y ago
      It's easy to make someone look reasonable if you ignore their unreasonable statements. https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/abolish https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/aboli... "to put an end to something, such as an organization, rule, or custom"
      - ceejayoz 5y ago
        I'm not sure we're discussing the same thing. Ayanna Pressley and Rashida Tlaib are police abolitionists. They're also quite unusual in Congress in this position. "Defund the police" and "abolish the police" aren't the same thing. That's the point.
- slibhb 5y ago
  The entire point of the slogan is that it can reasonably be interpretted as both a call for measured reform and a demand for radical change. Activists switch between these interpretations at will. Also, within activist circles, the most radical interpretation always wins. You're on HN and so you claim you want to "divert resources" but within "ACAB circles," the winning argument is always the most radical (prison abolition, prison = slavery, police are modern slave catchers, violence against police is justified). This pull to the extremes is what disturbs me about radical movements. It's possible that these movements have a positive effect when they interact with moderates and some kind of compromise is struck but the movements themselves are quite scary.
  - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
    It's a slogan that's perfect for using in a motte-and-bailey way.
colinmhayes 5y ago
Fringe congressmen and an op-ed written by a fringe organizer aren't really evidence of what the common consensus is.
GoodJokes 5y ago
Yes reform is not possible. Some non-armed entity needs to take its place.
myfavoritedog 5y ago
No True Scotsman defense incoming, as people pretend that a “very very small niche” is what it means when high-profile congressional members put forth positions that are not vigorously denounced by the media and their political allies.

ceejayoz 5y ago

Highlighting "a very very small niche" of politicians/activists isn't really debunking the "a very very small niche of the police reform community" claim. I like Ayanna Pressley and Rashida Tlaib, but they can hardly be claimed to be the mainstream portion of Congress, or even Congressional Democrats.

MikeUt 5y ago
Perhaps they should have chosen a slogan where the dictionary definition differs from the opinion of "a very very small niche".
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/defund https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/defun... "to stop providing money or as much money to pay for something"
  - MikeUt 5y ago
    It's easy to make someone look reasonable if you ignore their unreasonable statements. https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/abolish https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/aboli... "to put an end to something, such as an organization, rule, or custom"
    - ceejayoz 5y ago
      I'm not sure we're discussing the same thing. Ayanna Pressley and Rashida Tlaib are police abolitionists. They're also quite unusual in Congress in this position. "Defund the police" and "abolish the police" aren't the same thing. That's the point.
slibhb 5y ago
The entire point of the slogan is that it can reasonably be interpretted as both a call for measured reform and a demand for radical change. Activists switch between these interpretations at will. Also, within activist circles, the most radical interpretation always wins. You're on HN and so you claim you want to "divert resources" but within "ACAB circles," the winning argument is always the most radical (prison abolition, prison = slavery, police are modern slave catchers, violence against police is justified). This pull to the extremes is what disturbs me about radical movements. It's possible that these movements have a positive effect when they interact with moderates and some kind of compromise is struck but the movements themselves are quite scary.
- AnimalMuppet 5y ago
  It's a slogan that's perfect for using in a motte-and-bailey way.

colinmhayes 5y ago

Fringe congressmen and an op-ed written by a fringe organizer aren't really evidence of what the common consensus is.

GoodJokes 5y ago

Yes reform is not possible. Some non-armed entity needs to take its place.

myfavoritedog 5y ago

No True Scotsman defense incoming, as people pretend that a “very very small niche” is what it means when high-profile congressional members put forth positions that are not vigorously denounced by the media and their political allies.