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"Project Fear!" "Brexit means Brexit!" "Get Brexit done!" "We knew what we were voting for!" "Two world wars and one world cup!" "£350 million a week to th

"Project Fear!" "Brexit means Brexit!" "Get Brexit done!" "We knew what we were voting for!" "Two world wars and one world cup!" "£350 million a week to the NHS!" "Take back control!" "The will of the people!" "Leave means leave!" "No deal is better than a bad deal!" UK citizens got mugged. They were lied to over and over by the government. They lost rights and freedoms. They gained… Nothing.

maxehmookau 5y ago
The right-wing talk radio hosts in the UK are still utterly convinced that brexit has been a success. I struggle so hard to understand that perspective. I don't see how anything good has happened as a result. We now have: - a shortage of workers from the EU - harder to buy things from europe - harder to sell things to europe - more red tape when trying to drive in europe - higher insurance costs when going to europe - no rights to live or work in europe - thousands of EU citizens yet to apply for settled status and will be liable for expulsion - zero extra money for our health service - more expensive mobile phone costs and that's just what I can think off from the top of my head.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- toyg 5y ago
  > right-wing talk radio hosts in the UK are still utterly convinced that brexit has been a success. Their salary depends on it, so of course they "are".
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- samuel 5y ago
  But also a much higher vaccination rate. Probably a few thousands more of your compatriots would have died had you followed the EU vaccination program, don't forget that.
  - maxehmookau 5y ago
    EU states were (and are) under no restrictions to persue their own deals with pharma companies. The UK would've been no different within the EU unless it chose to.
    - throwaway84248 5y ago
      So what's the benefit of the EU? They do terribly at basics like vaccinating people to keep them alive, but it's ok as you can do your own thing? Lol so why bother being part of it?
    - samuel 5y ago
      Yet they didn't do it, aside from very minor exceptions. And with good reason, trying to outbid each other doesn't make a great strategy to keep a Union. I don't get why I'm downvited, btw.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- ben_w 5y ago
  An internal trade border within the UK that has directly triggered a multi-day arson-involved protest in the bit of the country that no longer has unfettered trade with the capital.
- maxehmookau 5y ago
  Lots of downvotes and no actual discussion. Pretty much sums up Brexit.
Tenoke 5y ago
I was/am anti-brexit but I have to admit things are nowhere near as bad as people were saying it would be by now. As far as I can tell the UK is if anything doing better than the EU on multiple metrics currently.
- the_mitsuhiko 5y ago
  Really? I was a pessimist on Brexit but not in my wildest dream did I expect stuff to get as bad. I thought they would end up like Norway. But they have basically no alignment right now. It’s harder to trade with the UK than Canada.
  - Tenoke 5y ago
    I've ordered stuff from the UK, even though I was told I won't be able to. I can go back to live there with little problem if I want despite being told otherwise. They did so much better at vaccinating because the EU didn't screw things for them like for all the member nations etc. Maybe it will get worse but the anti-brexit campaigns at the time painted a much much more negative picture than what I am seeing.
    - the_mitsuhiko 5y ago
      > I've ordered stuff from the UK, even though I was told I won't be able to. Who said you can’t. I also ordered there but stopped doing because customs handling adds high fees now. I get charged a flat 10 EUR on top of every order and 20% VAT. Many online stores already charge me UK VAT first so I end up paying VAT twice and the refunding process is burdensome. > I can go back to live there with little problem if I want despite being told otherwise. Lucky you. I’m a EU citizen and either in the UK for a few years. I’m not settled and I can’t go back. I would need a corporate visa sponsor and would end up coupled to said employer with no legal protections. > They did so much better at vaccinating because the EU didn't screw things for them like for all the member nations etc. Maybe. But right now we’re pretty even and the situation looks better in the EU. Definitely have more freedoms than my British friends right now. I have yet to see something positive to come out of Brexit. Even the good vaccination program happened while EU rules were still in effect.
lorlou 5y ago
If anything, yours is just an argument against democracy. Remember the UK citizens voted on this TWICE in practical effects. They want it. They may not be as stupid as you think they are.
- maxehmookau 5y ago
  For goodness sake. This argument has been played out a million times already. Obvious troll is obvious. But for posterity: - Wanting something doesn't make it sensible. - A (slim) majority of people wanting a stupid thing doesn't make it any less stupid.
  - toyg 5y ago
    > A (slim) majority of people wanting a stupid thing doesn't make it any less stupid. A sentence attributed to Italian singer-songwriter-intellectual Roberto "Freak" Antoni, or to author Marcello Marchesi, describes this concept in a great way: "LET'S EAT SHIT! BILLIONS OF FLIES CANNOT BE WRONG!"
- dreen 5y ago
  It was a very close vote, far from a clear winner. Some people want it. I believe far less than 50% nowdays.
  - TheOtherHobbes 5y ago
    Brexit had popular support for a brief period. The rest of the time there's been solid electoral opposition to it. A confirmatory referendum - defined as "undemocratic", because of course a clarifying vote on a complex issue can't possibly be democratic, according to the Brexiters - would have killed it. The most fervent supporters don't really want "Brexit" anyway. What they want is to put the clever people - the professionals who keep the lights on and the engines running - in their place. Which is why there was so much cut-and-paste rhetoric about "metropolitan elites" and "We've all had enough of experts." It was a very calculated campaign of disinformation and populist framing aimed at low-information authoritarians - the kinds of people who will reliably destroy their own country from the inside while convincing themselves they're "patriots."
thehappypm 5y ago
A bright spot of Brexit is that the UK negotiated a much more successful vaccine acquisition program, which spared them from a lot of Covid deaths.
- pjc50 5y ago
  I've yet to see an explanation of how this would have been impossible while in the EU. UK medical approval is through NICE, and purchasing through the NHS (and devolved NHS organisations!)
  - maxehmookau 5y ago
    Indeed, this argument is incorrect. The UK could've done exactly what it did whilst an EU member.
    - thehappypm 5y ago
      Then why did no EU members do it?
      - tolien 5y ago
        They did - Hungary bought and deployed the Sinopharm and Sputnik V vaccines which weren't EMA-approved [1], later also taking CoviShield (the AstraZeneca vaccine but manufactured in India) and CanSino. Why no other countries did it? Who knows. Maybe they thought they were already paying into the EU-wide scheme so why bother? 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_vaccination_in_Hungary#Background https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_vaccination_in_Hungar...
        thehappypm 5y ago
        Okay, one member state did it.
        tolien 5y ago
switch007 5y ago
We gained more fascism. - Channel 4 heavily criticised the PM and pulled an ice-statue-replacement stunt after he failed to show for an interview, so they're being sold off. - Johnson wants to strip electoral watchdog of prosecution powers - Threatening to reduce the power of the Supreme Court - Department of Education strongly encouraged schools to make children sing a One Britain, One Nation song (it's as bad as it sounds) - Heavily trying to push through a Bill to ban protest, including single-person "protests" - Government often completely bypasses Parliament, by making announcements outside of Parliament, much to the chagrin of the Speaker. This is weird as they have a whopping majority, so it's very deliberate what they're doing. - Gov is looking at withdrawing from European Convention on Human Rights - Priti Patel - Taking control of BBC with cronies in top jobs - Requiring ID for voting (blatant voter suppression). We do not have a fraud problem. I could go on...
- JamesDeepDown 5y ago
  Godwins law, the bottom has been reached, abandon ship everyone.
  - stavros 5y ago
    No, sorry, you don't get to invoke "comparison to Nazis" every time someone mentions the word "fascism". Stop shutting down debate with bullshit conversation-stoppers, the GP made a valid point.
    - JamesDeepDown 5y ago
      He literally compared the UK to a fascist state, and you're attacking me for calling him out on it?
      - stavros 5y ago
        He said "we gained more fascism", he didn't compare the UK to anything, and Godwin's law is specifically about mentioning Nazis, so I'm chastising you for being offtopic.
TheOtherHobbes 5y ago
The whole point of Brexit was to destroy social democracy. All the elements of social democracy - worker rights, environmental standards, democratic representation, a welfare state - will be replaced with profiteering and spivvery. Of course if Brexit had been sold as that, hardly anyone would have bought it. The UK is now in a race between fascism and incompetence. Neither is a good outcome, but an economic implosion followed by popular protests might just about turn this around before protest and resistance are banned by diktat. From another point of view the UK hasn't been a true democracy for decades. This is the country which hatched a number of coup plots against Harold Wilson, who was a rather stodgy and mainstream left-of-centre politician by European standards, but was considered a Soviet extremist by the Establishment - while that same Establishment protected insiders like Anthony Blunt who actually confessed to recruiting spies for the USSR. Blunt had gone to the right schools, so was given immunity from prosecution. He was allowed to keep his knighthood, and continued to work - for the Queen, no less - until he retired. If the intelligence services had had their way the public would never have been told. The story only came out in 1979 because a journalist broke it. The UK continues to be motivated by a very strange kind of class-based nationalistic extremism. Establishment insiders get almost infinite privileges, no matter what they do or how much they damage the country, while outsiders are treated with suspicion, contempt, and abuse. Brexit is just the latest twist in that story.
- JamesDeepDown 5y ago
  Now that someone has enacted Godwin and stated that the UK is becoming fascist, it's probably time to close this topic. The bottom has been reached.

maxehmookau 5y ago

The right-wing talk radio hosts in the UK are still utterly convinced that brexit has been a success. I struggle so hard to understand that perspective. I don't see how anything good has happened as a result. We now have: - a shortage of workers from the EU - harder to buy things from europe - harder to sell things to europe - more red tape when trying to drive in europe - higher insurance costs when going to europe - no rights to live or work in europe - thousands of EU citizens yet to apply for settled status and will be liable for expulsion - zero extra money for our health service - more expensive mobile phone costs and that's just what I can think off from the top of my head.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
toyg 5y ago
> right-wing talk radio hosts in the UK are still utterly convinced that brexit has been a success. Their salary depends on it, so of course they "are".
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
samuel 5y ago
But also a much higher vaccination rate. Probably a few thousands more of your compatriots would have died had you followed the EU vaccination program, don't forget that.
- maxehmookau 5y ago
  EU states were (and are) under no restrictions to persue their own deals with pharma companies. The UK would've been no different within the EU unless it chose to.
  - throwaway84248 5y ago
    So what's the benefit of the EU? They do terribly at basics like vaccinating people to keep them alive, but it's ok as you can do your own thing? Lol so why bother being part of it?
  - samuel 5y ago
    Yet they didn't do it, aside from very minor exceptions. And with good reason, trying to outbid each other doesn't make a great strategy to keep a Union. I don't get why I'm downvited, btw.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
ben_w 5y ago
An internal trade border within the UK that has directly triggered a multi-day arson-involved protest in the bit of the country that no longer has unfettered trade with the capital.
maxehmookau 5y ago
Lots of downvotes and no actual discussion. Pretty much sums up Brexit.

Tenoke 5y ago

I was/am anti-brexit but I have to admit things are nowhere near as bad as people were saying it would be by now. As far as I can tell the UK is if anything doing better than the EU on multiple metrics currently.

the_mitsuhiko 5y ago
Really? I was a pessimist on Brexit but not in my wildest dream did I expect stuff to get as bad. I thought they would end up like Norway. But they have basically no alignment right now. It’s harder to trade with the UK than Canada.
- Tenoke 5y ago
  I've ordered stuff from the UK, even though I was told I won't be able to. I can go back to live there with little problem if I want despite being told otherwise. They did so much better at vaccinating because the EU didn't screw things for them like for all the member nations etc. Maybe it will get worse but the anti-brexit campaigns at the time painted a much much more negative picture than what I am seeing.
  - the_mitsuhiko 5y ago
    > I've ordered stuff from the UK, even though I was told I won't be able to. Who said you can’t. I also ordered there but stopped doing because customs handling adds high fees now. I get charged a flat 10 EUR on top of every order and 20% VAT. Many online stores already charge me UK VAT first so I end up paying VAT twice and the refunding process is burdensome. > I can go back to live there with little problem if I want despite being told otherwise. Lucky you. I’m a EU citizen and either in the UK for a few years. I’m not settled and I can’t go back. I would need a corporate visa sponsor and would end up coupled to said employer with no legal protections. > They did so much better at vaccinating because the EU didn't screw things for them like for all the member nations etc. Maybe. But right now we’re pretty even and the situation looks better in the EU. Definitely have more freedoms than my British friends right now. I have yet to see something positive to come out of Brexit. Even the good vaccination program happened while EU rules were still in effect.

lorlou 5y ago

If anything, yours is just an argument against democracy. Remember the UK citizens voted on this TWICE in practical effects. They want it. They may not be as stupid as you think they are.

maxehmookau 5y ago
For goodness sake. This argument has been played out a million times already. Obvious troll is obvious. But for posterity: - Wanting something doesn't make it sensible. - A (slim) majority of people wanting a stupid thing doesn't make it any less stupid.
- toyg 5y ago
  > A (slim) majority of people wanting a stupid thing doesn't make it any less stupid. A sentence attributed to Italian singer-songwriter-intellectual Roberto "Freak" Antoni, or to author Marcello Marchesi, describes this concept in a great way: "LET'S EAT SHIT! BILLIONS OF FLIES CANNOT BE WRONG!"
dreen 5y ago
It was a very close vote, far from a clear winner. Some people want it. I believe far less than 50% nowdays.
- TheOtherHobbes 5y ago
  Brexit had popular support for a brief period. The rest of the time there's been solid electoral opposition to it. A confirmatory referendum - defined as "undemocratic", because of course a clarifying vote on a complex issue can't possibly be democratic, according to the Brexiters - would have killed it. The most fervent supporters don't really want "Brexit" anyway. What they want is to put the clever people - the professionals who keep the lights on and the engines running - in their place. Which is why there was so much cut-and-paste rhetoric about "metropolitan elites" and "We've all had enough of experts." It was a very calculated campaign of disinformation and populist framing aimed at low-information authoritarians - the kinds of people who will reliably destroy their own country from the inside while convincing themselves they're "patriots."

thehappypm 5y ago

A bright spot of Brexit is that the UK negotiated a much more successful vaccine acquisition program, which spared them from a lot of Covid deaths.

pjc50 5y ago
I've yet to see an explanation of how this would have been impossible while in the EU. UK medical approval is through NICE, and purchasing through the NHS (and devolved NHS organisations!)
- maxehmookau 5y ago
  Indeed, this argument is incorrect. The UK could've done exactly what it did whilst an EU member.
  - thehappypm 5y ago
    Then why did no EU members do it?
    - tolien 5y ago
      They did - Hungary bought and deployed the Sinopharm and Sputnik V vaccines which weren't EMA-approved [1], later also taking CoviShield (the AstraZeneca vaccine but manufactured in India) and CanSino. Why no other countries did it? Who knows. Maybe they thought they were already paying into the EU-wide scheme so why bother? 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_vaccination_in_Hungary#Background https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_vaccination_in_Hungar...
      - thehappypm 5y ago
        Okay, one member state did it.
        tolien 5y ago

switch007 5y ago

We gained more fascism. - Channel 4 heavily criticised the PM and pulled an ice-statue-replacement stunt after he failed to show for an interview, so they're being sold off. - Johnson wants to strip electoral watchdog of prosecution powers - Threatening to reduce the power of the Supreme Court - Department of Education strongly encouraged schools to make children sing a One Britain, One Nation song (it's as bad as it sounds) - Heavily trying to push through a Bill to ban protest, including single-person "protests" - Government often completely bypasses Parliament, by making announcements outside of Parliament, much to the chagrin of the Speaker. This is weird as they have a whopping majority, so it's very deliberate what they're doing. - Gov is looking at withdrawing from European Convention on Human Rights - Priti Patel - Taking control of BBC with cronies in top jobs - Requiring ID for voting (blatant voter suppression). We do not have a fraud problem. I could go on...

JamesDeepDown 5y ago
Godwins law, the bottom has been reached, abandon ship everyone.
- stavros 5y ago
  No, sorry, you don't get to invoke "comparison to Nazis" every time someone mentions the word "fascism". Stop shutting down debate with bullshit conversation-stoppers, the GP made a valid point.
  - JamesDeepDown 5y ago
    He literally compared the UK to a fascist state, and you're attacking me for calling him out on it?
    - stavros 5y ago
      He said "we gained more fascism", he didn't compare the UK to anything, and Godwin's law is specifically about mentioning Nazis, so I'm chastising you for being offtopic.

TheOtherHobbes 5y ago

The whole point of Brexit was to destroy social democracy. All the elements of social democracy - worker rights, environmental standards, democratic representation, a welfare state - will be replaced with profiteering and spivvery. Of course if Brexit had been sold as that, hardly anyone would have bought it. The UK is now in a race between fascism and incompetence. Neither is a good outcome, but an economic implosion followed by popular protests might just about turn this around before protest and resistance are banned by diktat. From another point of view the UK hasn't been a true democracy for decades. This is the country which hatched a number of coup plots against Harold Wilson, who was a rather stodgy and mainstream left-of-centre politician by European standards, but was considered a Soviet extremist by the Establishment - while that same Establishment protected insiders like Anthony Blunt who actually confessed to recruiting spies for the USSR. Blunt had gone to the right schools, so was given immunity from prosecution. He was allowed to keep his knighthood, and continued to work - for the Queen, no less - until he retired. If the intelligence services had had their way the public would never have been told. The story only came out in 1979 because a journalist broke it. The UK continues to be motivated by a very strange kind of class-based nationalistic extremism. Establishment insiders get almost infinite privileges, no matter what they do or how much they damage the country, while outsiders are treated with suspicion, contempt, and abuse. Brexit is just the latest twist in that story.

JamesDeepDown 5y ago
Now that someone has enacted Godwin and stated that the UK is becoming fascist, it's probably time to close this topic. The bottom has been reached.