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Cat install costs way more than that. But aside, would you really be okay going back to the days of photochemical smog choking away your sunlight and skyrocket

Cat install costs way more than that. But aside, would you really be okay going back to the days of photochemical smog choking away your sunlight and skyrocketing rates of asthma and acid rain dissolving your ancestor's gravestones?? Federal law requires the catalytic converters. Everyone is definitely better off for them.

throwaway0a5e 5y ago
> Cat install costs way more than that. Around here they're ~1hr of shop labor plus the cost of the cat (the latter being like $50 for an aftermarket cat up to a few hundred for an OEM cat (though there's a few vehicles with oddly expensive ones) with the 50-state cats always costing an integer multiple more. >But aside, would you really be okay going back to the days of photochemical smog choking away your sunlight and skyrocketing rates of asthma and acid rain dissolving your ancestor's gravestones?? What part about "sniffs withing spec at the tailpipe" was unclear?
- cartoonworld 5y ago
  $150 cat? I don't buy it. It costs $50 to turn the welder on for cheapy aftermarket units that fail fast, the clamp type arent compatible for most exhausts and cats are more that $50 even for older vehicles. Recent models can be hundreds of dollars on parts wholesalers. Your mechanic will charge list price. https://www.walkerexhaust.com/products/light-vehicle/catalytic-converters.html https://www.walkerexhaust.com/products/light-vehicle/catalyt... It won't sniff within spec at the tailpipe without the catalyst.
  - gbrown 5y ago
    I think you misunderstood the OP. > what cat you put on what as long as it sniffs within spec
    - cartoonworld 5y ago
      I don't think so, but I'm open to be educated about a $50 fifty state downstream catalytic converter. Cali cats are often more $ but, where in the USA is there a $50 catalyst? More over, which shop charges less then $100/hr labor? The down stream cat cleans up the photosmog producing tailpipe emissions. California learned how horrible the smog is, we knew about the causes almost a hundred years ago. Letting people install mystery cats, possibly made from real cats, is going back to the era of "west side story"
      - gbrown 5y ago
        I read the post as indicating that specific models of cat are required by car, but that what really matters are the specs, creating artificial complexity. Don’t know how true that is, or what the effect on price would be, but your reply didn’t seem to fit with how I understood the post.
        cartoonworld 5y ago
        Sorry about that, I probably glossed over some domain knowledge that I took for granted. It is complicated, to put it simply. California certifies the cats so that they ensure they are created well enough to last a while. They don't want a cat installed that works for a couple of days, just long enough to pass the smog dyno test and then who cares. It's probably excessive, but the smog was so bad, I can't help but empathize. You can totally do that janky work and it will "sniff within spec at the tailpipe". Soon, the substrate melts in the cat because your check engine light throws P0125 next week because your car is in open loop from your coolant temp sensor malfunctioning and you are too cheap to go fix because the emissions check isn't for 3 months. It's just the engine coolant temp sensor, that doesn't cause global warming, right? People want to get cheap cats because they don't see the value proposition in driving the photochemical smog towards zero, or they misunderstand the difference between the emissions check (ECU monitors provide this) and the smog check (the standalone dyno "moving road" load test) or mischaracterize all this "bullshit" to be about "funding" and "global warming" which they are motivated to reason is fake or whatever. For further information, acquire California's CARB cert document CALIFORNIA EVALUATION PROCEDURES FOR NEW AFTERMARKET CATALYTIC CONVERTERS[0] Peruse (e)(3) also sections (A) and (B) to learn of the age requirements. They require of cats that they work for 5 years. Sections (e)(4), (A) (B) and (C) describes how they should function including fuel economy considerations (appreciated, given prices) and how they must be securely installed in order to prevent failures during the time period. (e)(5)(A) and (B) outlines the procedure for ensuring they function into the required life of the device. They require the cat to be aged until they cause the MIL (check engine light) in order to verify the quality. This is hardly affectatious testing. But hypothetically, if you were really hurting, I'd mail you a 50-state cat and then sleep at night. [0] - PROCEDURES: https://ww3.arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermktcat/amcat_proc_2017.pdf https://ww3.arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermktcat/amcat_proc_2017.pd...
- londons_explore 5y ago
  If the Cat is worth $200 to a thief because of all the precious metals in it, how can a cheapo cat cost only $50? The cheapo cat doesn't have many precious metals in, and barely is doing its job. The sniff test done at the annual inspection doesn't typically test for all types of gas. So probably the cheapo one might 'pass the test' but still be far from meeting the law. Either that or the makers of cheapo knock-off catalytic converters have some amazing R&D that even the OEM's can't figure out...
pengaru 5y ago
> But aside, would you really be okay going back to the days of photochemical smog choking away your sunlight and skyrocketing rates of asthma and acid rain dissolving your ancestor's gravestones?? You're missing the point: new CA-legal catalytic converters cost 200-400% the price of 49-state legal ones because of the CARB certification. Most vendors won't even ship a new 49-state cat to a CA address, and selling used ones is technically illegal. This isn't about cat vs. no cat. It's about CA creating a lucrative black market while simultaneously strictly requiring cats be kept in good working order via regular smog checks. If the smog checks are worth a damn it shouldn't be necessary to certify the catalysts; if the cat isn't working, the vehicle should fail its regular smog test. CA is fundraising here, and it's no doubt a contributing factor in catalyst theft within the state.
- cartoonworld 5y ago
  200-400% hasn't been my experience, but I'll give you maybe they should expand carb nationwide to increase the demand side of the curve, lowering costs overall. >if the cat isn't working, the vehicle should fail its regular smog test. The vehicle ECU monitors the exhaust composition before and after the first catalyst. Downstream, the performance is not monitored by the computer. afiak the ECU doesn't have the capability to monitor nox and hydrocarons directly. The reason for this is that a cheap, reliable oxygen sensor is employed for monitoring. Maybe it's possible to add that regulation federally.
  - pengaru 5y ago
    > 200-400% hasn't been my experience, but I'll give you maybe they should expand carb nationwide to increase the demand side of the curve, lowering costs overall. 49-state legal, direct-fit: $118 https://www.ebay.com/itm/253120020746 https://www.ebay.com/itm/253120020746 CA-legal, universal: $776 https://www.ebay.com/itm/304044103436 https://www.ebay.com/itm/304044103436 CA-legal direct-fit: $1048 (!) https://www.ebay.com/itm/174087409201 https://www.ebay.com/itm/174087409201 > The vehicle ECU monitors the exhaust composition before and after the first catalyst. Downstream, the performance is not monitored by the computer. afiak the ECU doesn't have the capability to monitor nox and hydrocarons directly. The reason for this is that a cheap, reliable oxygen sensor is employed for monitoring. I don't see what any of this has to do with smog tests, and it's not even accurate for all vehicles (pre obd2 has just a single narrow band o2 sensor before the cat) but this is completely off-topic. The tests shouldn't rely on the vehicle's systems for measuring emissions, it just creates more opportunities for fuckery. CA smog tests use their own emissions monitoring equipment and have already employed rolling roads to put the vehicles through varying loads during the test.
29083011397778 5y ago
We wouldn't necessarily have to go back to that. We would be worse off without them [0], but Honda could get even GM's 5.7L V8 engine to pass regulations without a catalytic converter [1] in the mid-seventies. Eventually they couldn't get their CVCC engines to pass emissions without a cat, but we could make it back to the late seventies / early eighties. And that assumes we have made zero progress in engineering and material science over the last four decades, which strikes me as unlikely. [0] https://www.designnews.com/stub/we-make-it-simple-how-honda-outsmarted-catalytic-converters https://www.designnews.com/stub/we-make-it-simple-how-honda-... [1] https://jalopnik.com/when-honda-gave-gm-one-of-historys-most-amazing-smackdo-1576732771 https://jalopnik.com/when-honda-gave-gm-one-of-historys-most...
- cartoonworld 5y ago
  That's really interesting, I was unaware of this CVCC technology. However, the first article mentions leaded gas as its upside, which is abhorrent, causing me to literally tremble in fear. I'll restrain myself from any analysis as I'm unfamiliar with this technology. Very interesting, thank you.

throwaway0a5e 5y ago

> Cat install costs way more than that. Around here they're ~1hr of shop labor plus the cost of the cat (the latter being like $50 for an aftermarket cat up to a few hundred for an OEM cat (though there's a few vehicles with oddly expensive ones) with the 50-state cats always costing an integer multiple more. >But aside, would you really be okay going back to the days of photochemical smog choking away your sunlight and skyrocketing rates of asthma and acid rain dissolving your ancestor's gravestones?? What part about "sniffs withing spec at the tailpipe" was unclear?

cartoonworld 5y ago
$150 cat? I don't buy it. It costs $50 to turn the welder on for cheapy aftermarket units that fail fast, the clamp type arent compatible for most exhausts and cats are more that $50 even for older vehicles. Recent models can be hundreds of dollars on parts wholesalers. Your mechanic will charge list price. https://www.walkerexhaust.com/products/light-vehicle/catalytic-converters.html https://www.walkerexhaust.com/products/light-vehicle/catalyt... It won't sniff within spec at the tailpipe without the catalyst.
- gbrown 5y ago
  I think you misunderstood the OP. > what cat you put on what as long as it sniffs within spec
  - cartoonworld 5y ago
    I don't think so, but I'm open to be educated about a $50 fifty state downstream catalytic converter. Cali cats are often more $ but, where in the USA is there a $50 catalyst? More over, which shop charges less then $100/hr labor? The down stream cat cleans up the photosmog producing tailpipe emissions. California learned how horrible the smog is, we knew about the causes almost a hundred years ago. Letting people install mystery cats, possibly made from real cats, is going back to the era of "west side story"
    - gbrown 5y ago
      I read the post as indicating that specific models of cat are required by car, but that what really matters are the specs, creating artificial complexity. Don’t know how true that is, or what the effect on price would be, but your reply didn’t seem to fit with how I understood the post.
      - cartoonworld 5y ago
        Sorry about that, I probably glossed over some domain knowledge that I took for granted. It is complicated, to put it simply. California certifies the cats so that they ensure they are created well enough to last a while. They don't want a cat installed that works for a couple of days, just long enough to pass the smog dyno test and then who cares. It's probably excessive, but the smog was so bad, I can't help but empathize. You can totally do that janky work and it will "sniff within spec at the tailpipe". Soon, the substrate melts in the cat because your check engine light throws P0125 next week because your car is in open loop from your coolant temp sensor malfunctioning and you are too cheap to go fix because the emissions check isn't for 3 months. It's just the engine coolant temp sensor, that doesn't cause global warming, right? People want to get cheap cats because they don't see the value proposition in driving the photochemical smog towards zero, or they misunderstand the difference between the emissions check (ECU monitors provide this) and the smog check (the standalone dyno "moving road" load test) or mischaracterize all this "bullshit" to be about "funding" and "global warming" which they are motivated to reason is fake or whatever. For further information, acquire California's CARB cert document CALIFORNIA EVALUATION PROCEDURES FOR NEW AFTERMARKET CATALYTIC CONVERTERS[0] Peruse (e)(3) also sections (A) and (B) to learn of the age requirements. They require of cats that they work for 5 years. Sections (e)(4), (A) (B) and (C) describes how they should function including fuel economy considerations (appreciated, given prices) and how they must be securely installed in order to prevent failures during the time period. (e)(5)(A) and (B) outlines the procedure for ensuring they function into the required life of the device. They require the cat to be aged until they cause the MIL (check engine light) in order to verify the quality. This is hardly affectatious testing. But hypothetically, if you were really hurting, I'd mail you a 50-state cat and then sleep at night. [0] - PROCEDURES: https://ww3.arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermktcat/amcat_proc_2017.pdf https://ww3.arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermktcat/amcat_proc_2017.pd...
londons_explore 5y ago
If the Cat is worth $200 to a thief because of all the precious metals in it, how can a cheapo cat cost only $50? The cheapo cat doesn't have many precious metals in, and barely is doing its job. The sniff test done at the annual inspection doesn't typically test for all types of gas. So probably the cheapo one might 'pass the test' but still be far from meeting the law. Either that or the makers of cheapo knock-off catalytic converters have some amazing R&D that even the OEM's can't figure out...

pengaru 5y ago

> But aside, would you really be okay going back to the days of photochemical smog choking away your sunlight and skyrocketing rates of asthma and acid rain dissolving your ancestor's gravestones?? You're missing the point: new CA-legal catalytic converters cost 200-400% the price of 49-state legal ones because of the CARB certification. Most vendors won't even ship a new 49-state cat to a CA address, and selling used ones is technically illegal. This isn't about cat vs. no cat. It's about CA creating a lucrative black market while simultaneously strictly requiring cats be kept in good working order via regular smog checks. If the smog checks are worth a damn it shouldn't be necessary to certify the catalysts; if the cat isn't working, the vehicle should fail its regular smog test. CA is fundraising here, and it's no doubt a contributing factor in catalyst theft within the state.

cartoonworld 5y ago
200-400% hasn't been my experience, but I'll give you maybe they should expand carb nationwide to increase the demand side of the curve, lowering costs overall. >if the cat isn't working, the vehicle should fail its regular smog test. The vehicle ECU monitors the exhaust composition before and after the first catalyst. Downstream, the performance is not monitored by the computer. afiak the ECU doesn't have the capability to monitor nox and hydrocarons directly. The reason for this is that a cheap, reliable oxygen sensor is employed for monitoring. Maybe it's possible to add that regulation federally.
- pengaru 5y ago
  > 200-400% hasn't been my experience, but I'll give you maybe they should expand carb nationwide to increase the demand side of the curve, lowering costs overall. 49-state legal, direct-fit: $118 https://www.ebay.com/itm/253120020746 https://www.ebay.com/itm/253120020746 CA-legal, universal: $776 https://www.ebay.com/itm/304044103436 https://www.ebay.com/itm/304044103436 CA-legal direct-fit: $1048 (!) https://www.ebay.com/itm/174087409201 https://www.ebay.com/itm/174087409201 > The vehicle ECU monitors the exhaust composition before and after the first catalyst. Downstream, the performance is not monitored by the computer. afiak the ECU doesn't have the capability to monitor nox and hydrocarons directly. The reason for this is that a cheap, reliable oxygen sensor is employed for monitoring. I don't see what any of this has to do with smog tests, and it's not even accurate for all vehicles (pre obd2 has just a single narrow band o2 sensor before the cat) but this is completely off-topic. The tests shouldn't rely on the vehicle's systems for measuring emissions, it just creates more opportunities for fuckery. CA smog tests use their own emissions monitoring equipment and have already employed rolling roads to put the vehicles through varying loads during the test.

29083011397778 5y ago

We wouldn't necessarily have to go back to that. We would be worse off without them [0], but Honda could get even GM's 5.7L V8 engine to pass regulations without a catalytic converter [1] in the mid-seventies. Eventually they couldn't get their CVCC engines to pass emissions without a cat, but we could make it back to the late seventies / early eighties. And that assumes we have made zero progress in engineering and material science over the last four decades, which strikes me as unlikely. [0] https://www.designnews.com/stub/we-make-it-simple-how-honda-outsmarted-catalytic-converters https://www.designnews.com/stub/we-make-it-simple-how-honda-... [1] https://jalopnik.com/when-honda-gave-gm-one-of-historys-most-amazing-smackdo-1576732771 https://jalopnik.com/when-honda-gave-gm-one-of-historys-most...

cartoonworld 5y ago
That's really interesting, I was unaware of this CVCC technology. However, the first article mentions leaded gas as its upside, which is abhorrent, causing me to literally tremble in fear. I'll restrain myself from any analysis as I'm unfamiliar with this technology. Very interesting, thank you.