4 ms·

> For instance: Is a thin and light plastic used once and incinerated in a state of the art facility (that might produce heat/electricity in the process) necess

by jamil7 5y ago

> For instance: Is a thin and light plastic used once and incinerated in a state of the art facility (that might produce heat/electricity in the process) necessarily worse than re-useable glass that is much heavier, may require more energy to produce, and require energy and resources (including water) to re-use? I would also like to know the answer to this. In Germany certain glass and plastic bottles that work with the deposit system (Pfandsystem) are washed and refilled directly (up to 50 times for glass I think) rather than going through a more complicated recycling process. I would have to imagine this is better than manufacturing a plastic bottle and burning it? When I try to find comparisons for this online it's often comparing a recycling process in which the glass is broken down and remade. If anyone knows I'd love to learn more.

tharkun__ 5y ago
I don't remember exactly but I think it was a Quarks&Co waay back that compared glass bottles in the Pfandsystem with plastic ones and plastic ones that don't get reused IIRC. But don't quote me on that, try to find the episode :) What I do remember is that it's not actually as clear cut as one might think. They also accounted for the fact that glass is much heavier and thus you need to use more gasoline to ship it around (from the bottle producer to the bottling plant, to the stores, to you, you bring it back to the store which ships it back to the bottling plant to wash and refill and so on. And then you can not reuse it indefinitely either. A hard plastic reusable coke bottle is much lighter and can be reused a lot of times in the same manner. I remember seeing a lot of them where you could tell from all the scratches and such. Especially on the bottom. Related but not plastics: another probably Quarks&Co episode compared apples from Australia shipped to Germany vs. local apples. According to their calculations it was actually better for the enviro ment to ship fresh apples from Australia to Germany than to store local German apples and sell those at some point. Some point because of the amount of resources needed to store local apples in order for them to stay fresh that long. So at some point during spring/summer it starts being better to ship them from Australia.
- jamil7 5y ago
  Thanks for the thoughtful answer. I will check out those episodes. I have actually heard the thing about certain fruit and vegetables making more sense to buy from overseas than from cool storage. I guess ideally you only eat seasonal food but that leaves very little in the way of fruit and vegetables in German winter.
  - tharkun__ 5y ago
    Especially since you nit only need cold storage. You also need to have a special atmosphere, not just regular air. That's not needed when you store your own apples over winter in cold storage because you don't need to keep them in saleable condition. But nobody buys apples that look like that, even if still totally edible and awesome for pie :) Way less fresh stuff than we are used to nowadays, yes. But not too bad nutrient wise actually. Germany being well suited to cabbage for example, making Sauerkraut both gives you lots of fibre and lots of vitamin C. It also stores so well that you can eat it well into the part of the year where you will have fresh veggies. It has lots of good bacteria that help your gut microbiome. Carrots apparently store well in low tech ways too, like in wet sand preferably in a root cellar. Most fruit nowadays are eaten for taste, not nutrients and/or people just live in the city so that the low tech ways just don't work any longer. Never mind not knowing about them either. If you are looking for something else in this direction I totally don't remember the name and its probably 20 years old by now but I remember watching another show where they had a family live on an old farm like they would've more than 100 years ago (at that point). So they did make Sauerkraut for example. Multiple large crock pots full and all that. Not easy, not as nice as today. But what I've been thinking is that with just a tiny bit of modernisms but then also using this "old knowledge" we could all do way better for the environment. E.g. having sugar easily and cheaply available as well as lemons and pectin in packages and pressure bath pots is great. Makes awesome, safe to eat (botulism) jam from all this fruit. Another great way in case you aren't doing it already: Rumpott. Big glazed clay pot that you start filling with with spirits such as rum and as things become available you put in things like strawberries, cherries, currants and/or plums. Not necessarily mainly used for preserving the fruit but awesome nonetheless around Xmas time (or any time during the cold months).

by jamil7 5y ago

tharkun__ 5y ago

I don't remember exactly but I think it was a Quarks&Co waay back that compared glass bottles in the Pfandsystem with plastic ones and plastic ones that don't get reused IIRC. But don't quote me on that, try to find the episode :) What I do remember is that it's not actually as clear cut as one might think. They also accounted for the fact that glass is much heavier and thus you need to use more gasoline to ship it around (from the bottle producer to the bottling plant, to the stores, to you, you bring it back to the store which ships it back to the bottling plant to wash and refill and so on. And then you can not reuse it indefinitely either. A hard plastic reusable coke bottle is much lighter and can be reused a lot of times in the same manner. I remember seeing a lot of them where you could tell from all the scratches and such. Especially on the bottom. Related but not plastics: another probably Quarks&Co episode compared apples from Australia shipped to Germany vs. local apples. According to their calculations it was actually better for the enviro ment to ship fresh apples from Australia to Germany than to store local German apples and sell those at some point. Some point because of the amount of resources needed to store local apples in order for them to stay fresh that long. So at some point during spring/summer it starts being better to ship them from Australia.

jamil7 5y ago
Thanks for the thoughtful answer. I will check out those episodes. I have actually heard the thing about certain fruit and vegetables making more sense to buy from overseas than from cool storage. I guess ideally you only eat seasonal food but that leaves very little in the way of fruit and vegetables in German winter.
- tharkun__ 5y ago
  Especially since you nit only need cold storage. You also need to have a special atmosphere, not just regular air. That's not needed when you store your own apples over winter in cold storage because you don't need to keep them in saleable condition. But nobody buys apples that look like that, even if still totally edible and awesome for pie :) Way less fresh stuff than we are used to nowadays, yes. But not too bad nutrient wise actually. Germany being well suited to cabbage for example, making Sauerkraut both gives you lots of fibre and lots of vitamin C. It also stores so well that you can eat it well into the part of the year where you will have fresh veggies. It has lots of good bacteria that help your gut microbiome. Carrots apparently store well in low tech ways too, like in wet sand preferably in a root cellar. Most fruit nowadays are eaten for taste, not nutrients and/or people just live in the city so that the low tech ways just don't work any longer. Never mind not knowing about them either. If you are looking for something else in this direction I totally don't remember the name and its probably 20 years old by now but I remember watching another show where they had a family live on an old farm like they would've more than 100 years ago (at that point). So they did make Sauerkraut for example. Multiple large crock pots full and all that. Not easy, not as nice as today. But what I've been thinking is that with just a tiny bit of modernisms but then also using this "old knowledge" we could all do way better for the environment. E.g. having sugar easily and cheaply available as well as lemons and pectin in packages and pressure bath pots is great. Makes awesome, safe to eat (botulism) jam from all this fruit. Another great way in case you aren't doing it already: Rumpott. Big glazed clay pot that you start filling with with spirits such as rum and as things become available you put in things like strawberries, cherries, currants and/or plums. Not necessarily mainly used for preserving the fruit but awesome nonetheless around Xmas time (or any time during the cold months).