5 ms·
> The debate is not about whether somebody can use a pronoun. It sort of is, though: someone's use of a pronoun only exists to the extent that others refer to
by GavinMcG 5y ago
> The debate is not about whether somebody can use a pronoun.
It sort of is, though: someone's use of a pronoun only exists to the extent that others refer to them that way. My pronouns for myself are I/me/mine. Your avoidance of the pronouns I prefer denies me the "use" of those pronouns. I can't use them without your help.
Not disagreeing about the positive/negative rights characterization. And bigger picture: you're right that this really is about respect. Many people want to demand (even if not compel) more attention to mutual respect; many others want to use disrespectfulness as an indicator of their independence, because they view that as a more important value.
- wlesieutre 5y agoRight? It's like if someone asked me "Hey, I'd prefer you call me Robert instead of Bobby" and I got pissed about it because they're trying to infringe on my free speech. It's their identity, they're asking you to identify them a particular way. Are they asking you to expend a small amount of effort to mentally adjust how to refer to them? Yes. Have people been changing nicknames over their lives for probably hundreds or thousands of years? Also yes. But you ask someone to use a different pronoun and suddenly it's just too much.
- justinjlynn 5y agoWell, they say it's too much - but really it's just that they believe you aren't a valid member of the group you're claiming to be and they can't directly call you a liar. They're wrong, of course; but they're also lying when they say it's too much effort - that's not why.
- wlesieutre 5y agoYes, very much a lack of respect for someone's choice of identity. Forget nicknames, how would these people feel if somebody just said "Hey I'm going to call you Arnold now, because you fit my mental image of Arnold." Wildly inappropriate thing to do? If you want to go and impose whatever pronoun you want on someone based on how they look, don't act shocked when you get called out for being a dick to them.
- Mirioron 5y agoWe don't have an obligation to call somebody by their real name nor should we have an obligation to use their preferred pronouns. We should do it out of respect, but we shouldn't be obligated to do so by law or some other rule. I've not seen someone suffer negative consequences for calling someone else the wrong real name. I've seen instances of negative consequences for someone using the wrong pronoun though.
- wlesieutre 5y agoIs that because there would be no consequences if I showed up to my job and started calling every customer I talk to "Frank"? Or is it because deliberately going out of your way to call people the wrong name to make a political point isn't a thing that anyone does, so nobody has needed a rule to make them knock it off?
- justinjlynn 5y agochuckles You know, in being subtle like that, I fear you might not be making your point clearly enough for the others.
- hn_go_brrrrr 5y agoYep, I missed it until your comment prompted me to read more carefully and again.
- nate_meurer 5y ago> But you ask someone to use a different pronoun and suddenly it's just too much. It may indeed be. I likely don't have the time or energy to correctly address people who insist on being called they/them, or xe/xem. I have enough trouble remembering people's names.
- wlesieutre 5y agoGetting someone's pronoun wrong by accident happens. And it's generally just an "oh sorry, I'll try to get that right next time" and you move on. The problematic people are the ones who make a deliberate point of not using the pronouns that someone would like them to use, because they've independently decided that those pronouns are wrong.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- DangitBobby 5y agoI see it being compared to demanding people call you "King Robert (the Beloved) III, the Resplendent." Is it disrespectful not to meet their demands because it makes you feel silly? At what point are you allowed to say that they require excessive external effort to help them maintain their identity?
- GavinMcG 5y agoWell, not at the point where you say "she" instead of "he". The fact that you can come up with a ridiculous example doesn't mean the actual request is ridiculous.
- DangitBobby 5y agoI don't think that she, he, or they are ridiculous. I personally have never been instructed on someone's pronouns before so I have no real life example of something that I would find ridiculous. But it's not difficult for me to imagine a set of pronouns that I would not enjoy using, and would probably avoid interactions with someone who insisted that I use them.
- GavinMcG 5y agoSo you're making an argument against the concept of respecting someone's requested pronouns, because it's "not difficult for you to imagine" a situation where you would "feel silly" even though you've never even encountered someone who asked you to use even non-silly pronouns. Great contribution. The sad thing is that while this is only a conversation on the internet, there are people out there passing laws affecting actual humans with the same amount of actual exposure to those humans and based entirely on their own imagined discomfort.
- DangitBobby 5y agoOkay. I can tell you feel your logical position is much stronger than it actually is. We need not live through things to form opinions, and since I've never had to deny anyone's pronoun request I'm not really sure what you think you're defending against. Maybe explain how you think my opinion wrong instead of huffing and puffing about hypotheticals being evil. I don't feel the shame you've tried to direct my way. Maybe some second hand embarrassment for what I'm reading. Great contribution.
- beerandt 5y agoIs it too much if they responded by asking you to use the pronouns real-her, xx-hers, & born-she for her? Or would it be an implicit acceptance of the presumptions implied? Would that not matter since it's their identity?