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It still seems a bit silly not to investigate this fully. After 9/11 there was a failure in airplane protocol to not have bolted pilot doors and to not aggress

It still seems a bit silly not to investigate this fully. After 9/11 there was a failure in airplane protocol to not have bolted pilot doors and to not aggressively fight hijackers. I wouldn't say investigating Saudi Arabia should have been avoided - even if there had been voices at the TSA who wanted to distract from their own failures.

fieldcny 5y ago
Let’s for a second assume not only that it was a lab leak, but that it was on purpose, what do you propose the response be?
- handmodel 5y ago
  If they intentionally let out something that killed millions of people then it should be met with extremely hard sanctions or more to force change at the CCP. If you let a country intentionally kills hundreds of thousands of people and enact no penalty they will only escalate. Still - I'd say the chance it was intentional to be less than 1/1000. Chance it was by accident - and that they covered it up - to be fairly high.
  - fieldcny 5y ago
    I don’t think anyone disputes that they covered up the severity, that was clear in real-time. The question is if this was an intentional lab leak as is being suggested, I’m curious to know what people expect to happen. As you pointed out this has killed millions of people, seems like people are angling for a war. That outcome is why the accusation that this is intentional is a very very serious accusation and not one that should be tossed around by a bunch of half cocked internet sleuths (not saying you are one, just in general).
    - sterlind 5y ago
      If it were intentionally released, they'd have planted it at the CDC or somewhere else that studies coronaviruses so they wouldn't be the obvious ground zero. China intentionally releasing a virus in Wuhan makes no sense.
      - fieldcny 5y ago
        Totally agree, all this hullabaloo and these arm chair virologists remind me of this scene from the Simpsons https://youtu.be/BNpmJVa10PU https://youtu.be/BNpmJVa10PU
- nomel 5y ago
  If every country in the world, who was affected, learned this, I assume there would be very appropriate discussions within the leadership of them all. Talking about this, and worldwide agreement to prevent it from happening again, would be a fantastic response. If it was intentional, then they're incompetent. I don't believe they're incompetent.
wokwokwok 5y ago
You are perhaps better off asking a different question: Not, “was it a lab leak?” Rather: if proven it was a lab leak, what would the remediation be? Would it be a) for tightening of biosecurity controls, b) toughening of wild animal trade, or c) war with China. We will get a) and b) without knowing where it came from; as prudent steps to prevent this from happening again; they are already happening. Perhaps we can avoid c) if we never “really know”. That would be nice.
- tigen 5y ago
  Why do you think "war with China" is a potential outcome of determining it was a lab leak? This is not a strong argument. Regardless of all these wild pontifications, those who have run interference on the truth need to suffer the reputational consequences.
  - wokwokwok 5y ago
    Don’t be naive. Having a immediate target that is clearly to blame and already an “enemy” isn't going to just result in a ideological slap on the wrist. What consequences do you think there should be? Pay for the damage to the US economy? To the world? Apologise and it’s fine? What do think “holding them to account for what happened” actually means? This isn’t some scientific journal where you lose magical reputation points. There's already literally a response two comments down saying you would need to force change to the CCP. How do you imagine that's going to happen? Ask nicely? Sanctions? Well, that's worked just great so far. Let's see, oh I can think of another way of forcing change... what could it be?
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - Judgmentality 5y ago
      I'd much rather have China admit fault and explain how this won't happen in the future than the current situation. As it stands I assume they are hiding something. For all I know they're developing bioweapons they plan to use for military purposes. And if they have nothing to hide then they have nothing to apologize for, but as it stands nobody is allowed to investigate so I have little faith in this theory. I'm not pretending this isn't a political clusterfuck. But I'd rather deal with a political clusterfuck than a bioweapon clusterfuck. And if they aren't developing bioweapons then great! If they are developing bioweapons then that feels like something that's better to know sooner rather than later. And if there wasn't a lab leak then even better! Now the world knows that it really was just a bizarre phenomenon. If there was a lab leak then they simply made a mistake, they can rectify that mistake moving forward, and the world moves on. If the world doesn't move on - what are they going to do? You think the US (or any country) will go to war (as in send in troops in huge numbers with the understanding most of them will likely die) with China because of an accidental lab leak? I don't. It seems to me the dumbest possible thing to do is not investigate. I don't believe advocating for ignorance is ever a viable strategy.
juanani 5y ago
IIRC TSA was assembled because of 9/11. There was no TSA that failed back then since it didn't exist.
- steve_adams_86 5y ago
  People often forget how dramatically things changed in the years after the attack. Or I suppose some people just weren't alive to witness the changes! It was a long time ago, bizarrely enough. It feels recent. Perhaps in part because it's still so relevant.
nuclearnice1 5y ago
More than a bit silly. It should be investigated fully. It’s a shame so much time has passed already. Did something in my comment sound like I didn’t favor investigating? That was not my intention. The origin including lab leak should be investigated.

fieldcny 5y ago

Let’s for a second assume not only that it was a lab leak, but that it was on purpose, what do you propose the response be?

handmodel 5y ago
If they intentionally let out something that killed millions of people then it should be met with extremely hard sanctions or more to force change at the CCP. If you let a country intentionally kills hundreds of thousands of people and enact no penalty they will only escalate. Still - I'd say the chance it was intentional to be less than 1/1000. Chance it was by accident - and that they covered it up - to be fairly high.
- fieldcny 5y ago
  I don’t think anyone disputes that they covered up the severity, that was clear in real-time. The question is if this was an intentional lab leak as is being suggested, I’m curious to know what people expect to happen. As you pointed out this has killed millions of people, seems like people are angling for a war. That outcome is why the accusation that this is intentional is a very very serious accusation and not one that should be tossed around by a bunch of half cocked internet sleuths (not saying you are one, just in general).
  - sterlind 5y ago
    If it were intentionally released, they'd have planted it at the CDC or somewhere else that studies coronaviruses so they wouldn't be the obvious ground zero. China intentionally releasing a virus in Wuhan makes no sense.
    - fieldcny 5y ago
      Totally agree, all this hullabaloo and these arm chair virologists remind me of this scene from the Simpsons https://youtu.be/BNpmJVa10PU https://youtu.be/BNpmJVa10PU
nomel 5y ago
If every country in the world, who was affected, learned this, I assume there would be very appropriate discussions within the leadership of them all. Talking about this, and worldwide agreement to prevent it from happening again, would be a fantastic response. If it was intentional, then they're incompetent. I don't believe they're incompetent.

wokwokwok 5y ago

You are perhaps better off asking a different question: Not, “was it a lab leak?” Rather: if proven it was a lab leak, what would the remediation be? Would it be a) for tightening of biosecurity controls, b) toughening of wild animal trade, or c) war with China. We will get a) and b) without knowing where it came from; as prudent steps to prevent this from happening again; they are already happening. Perhaps we can avoid c) if we never “really know”. That would be nice.

tigen 5y ago
Why do you think "war with China" is a potential outcome of determining it was a lab leak? This is not a strong argument. Regardless of all these wild pontifications, those who have run interference on the truth need to suffer the reputational consequences.
- wokwokwok 5y ago
  Don’t be naive. Having a immediate target that is clearly to blame and already an “enemy” isn't going to just result in a ideological slap on the wrist. What consequences do you think there should be? Pay for the damage to the US economy? To the world? Apologise and it’s fine? What do think “holding them to account for what happened” actually means? This isn’t some scientific journal where you lose magical reputation points. There's already literally a response two comments down saying you would need to force change to the CCP. How do you imagine that's going to happen? Ask nicely? Sanctions? Well, that's worked just great so far. Let's see, oh I can think of another way of forcing change... what could it be?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - Judgmentality 5y ago
    I'd much rather have China admit fault and explain how this won't happen in the future than the current situation. As it stands I assume they are hiding something. For all I know they're developing bioweapons they plan to use for military purposes. And if they have nothing to hide then they have nothing to apologize for, but as it stands nobody is allowed to investigate so I have little faith in this theory. I'm not pretending this isn't a political clusterfuck. But I'd rather deal with a political clusterfuck than a bioweapon clusterfuck. And if they aren't developing bioweapons then great! If they are developing bioweapons then that feels like something that's better to know sooner rather than later. And if there wasn't a lab leak then even better! Now the world knows that it really was just a bizarre phenomenon. If there was a lab leak then they simply made a mistake, they can rectify that mistake moving forward, and the world moves on. If the world doesn't move on - what are they going to do? You think the US (or any country) will go to war (as in send in troops in huge numbers with the understanding most of them will likely die) with China because of an accidental lab leak? I don't. It seems to me the dumbest possible thing to do is not investigate. I don't believe advocating for ignorance is ever a viable strategy.

juanani 5y ago

IIRC TSA was assembled because of 9/11. There was no TSA that failed back then since it didn't exist.

steve_adams_86 5y ago
People often forget how dramatically things changed in the years after the attack. Or I suppose some people just weren't alive to witness the changes! It was a long time ago, bizarrely enough. It feels recent. Perhaps in part because it's still so relevant.

nuclearnice1 5y ago

More than a bit silly. It should be investigated fully. It’s a shame so much time has passed already. Did something in my comment sound like I didn’t favor investigating? That was not my intention. The origin including lab leak should be investigated.