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> First, the vast majority of people who insisted on the lab leak theory did it to deflect blame and target China as a scapegoat. If China did have a lab that

by abnry 5y ago

> First, the vast majority of people who insisted on the lab leak theory did it to deflect blame and target China as a scapegoat. If China did have a lab that leaked the virus, they _are_ to blame. To say that we shouldn't hold their feet to the fire if this is the case, well, that's a fine political opinion you can have. It may or may not be prudent. The essence of the argument why we shouldn't discuss the lab leak hypothesis is "people's feelings". In other words, feelings are more important than what is true. Truth should be the highest priority, damn whoever's political interests it will help. It is so sad that thinking of truth as too dangerous is part of today's milieu.

bamboozled 5y ago
Isn’t this the problem? China knows there will be consequences if it was “China” who did it? Obviously a major ego bruising. Who cares who did it, naturally it will be more evidence that communist dictatorships aren’t the best way to run things, but they’re never going to share the truth if that means a flogging.
- 8note 5y ago
  I'd think the biggest consequence would be that another virus is released or mutates that isn't china specific, and the governments are just as unprepared as they were in 2019, since they fixed the lab leak problem instead of the being prepared problem
- smhost 5y ago
  You mean it would just be more evidence that communist republics aren't the best way to run things for America. China seems to be doing fine.
  - largbae 5y ago
    Absolutely, no freedom of speech to say otherwise!
scotty79 5y ago
If truth is unknowable next best thing to care about are feelings. And you pretty much can't disprove lab leak idea at this point because there can't exist any sufficient evidence against it to convince people who believe in it. Even if you just personally let them inside the lab and gave them access to all documents the only thing they would find would be next suspicious clues regardless of what would actually happened. And even if there was very little they managed to find suspicious they'd say it's because evidence was removed and they are being lied to.
- cscurmudgeon 5y ago
  > If truth is unknowable next best thing to care about are feelings. The truth became unknowable due to feelings.
  - cunthorpe 5y ago
    Sounds like they are succeeding in their intent then.
  - scotty79 5y ago
    Truth in this case is unknowable because absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. And what we have after more than a year of people wondering about this idea is just absence of evidence.
    - cscurmudgeon 5y ago
      In Science, one year is nothing. It will become knowable with international pressure. Giving up midway is not the solution.
      - scotty79 5y ago
        Midway to what? If there was any conclusive evidence that they had a sample of covid or its ancestor in that lab before late 2019 it could have been destroyed without a trace right after. You'll be always left with nothing more than accusations that can't be disproven (or proven). The only thing that might put this thing to rest is further research on coronaviruses in animals and humans especially the ones that spread asympthomatically which are way harder to even find. And maybe some day we'll discover some ancestor of covid somewhere. But it still won't put the lab leak hypothesis to rest if it's found in bats. Only if ancestor of covid is actually human coronavirus (other then the ones we discovered so far because they cause symptoms of common cold) and is detected in historical tissue samples from humans from before 2019 then maybe most people will rule out lab leak. Meanwhile get ready for decades of blaming China for the pandemic.
eschaton 5y ago
So if a restaurant worker in California happens to do a poor job of washing their hands and a diner gets sick, does that mean America is to blame? There should absolutely be as deep as possible an investigation into the origins of the virus, but it needs to be dispassionate in all directions.
- cscurmudgeon 5y ago
  Yes. If the restaurant had a history of documented safety issues and the relevant regulatory government bodies didn't take action to rectify it. https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/14/state-department-cables-warned-safety-issues-wuhan-lab-studying-bat-coronaviruses/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/14/state-dep... https://www.businessinsider.com/us-officials-raised-alarms-about-safety-issues-in-wuhan-lab-report-2020-4 https://www.businessinsider.com/us-officials-raised-alarms-a... Btw, comparing a restaurant worker being sloppy and a supposedly BSL-4 lab functioning at the level of BSL-2 lab is not a good look. Also, China's govt. has much much more control over a govt. lab than US has over a restaurant in California. The analogy fails.
  - 8note 5y ago
    The US has complete control over a restaurant in California. Its got a huge military and could nuke the place if it wanted to. Deciding not to is the same in both cases
    - cscurmudgeon 5y ago
      > The US has complete control over a restaurant in California No, it doesn't. > Its got a huge military and could nuke the place if it wanted to By this logic, the US govt. has control over every corner of earth. Also, was the US govt. running the place and ignoring safety warnings? Was the restaurant possible responsible for a global pandemic? The analogy is stupid and not worth discussing more. All I am getting from this is that people think a restaurant I n US has the same level of responsibility as the lab in Wuhan.
- karaterobot 5y ago
nuclearnice1 5y ago
> If China did have a lab that leaked the virus, they _are_ to blame. I think you’re misunderstanding the bit you are quoting. Of course China is to blame if they had a lab leak. The comment is instead making the point that most of those who are blaming China are not doing it motivated from a reasonable belief that there was a lab leak. Rather they are motivated by the opportunity to use China as a political tool to avoid blame for their own failures in dealing with the pandemic.
- handmodel 5y ago
  It still seems a bit silly not to investigate this fully. After 9/11 there was a failure in airplane protocol to not have bolted pilot doors and to not aggressively fight hijackers. I wouldn't say investigating Saudi Arabia should have been avoided - even if there had been voices at the TSA who wanted to distract from their own failures.
  - fieldcny 5y ago
    Let’s for a second assume not only that it was a lab leak, but that it was on purpose, what do you propose the response be?
    - handmodel 5y ago
      If they intentionally let out something that killed millions of people then it should be met with extremely hard sanctions or more to force change at the CCP. If you let a country intentionally kills hundreds of thousands of people and enact no penalty they will only escalate. Still - I'd say the chance it was intentional to be less than 1/1000. Chance it was by accident - and that they covered it up - to be fairly high.
      - fieldcny 5y ago
        I don’t think anyone disputes that they covered up the severity, that was clear in real-time. The question is if this was an intentional lab leak as is being suggested, I’m curious to know what people expect to happen. As you pointed out this has killed millions of people, seems like people are angling for a war. That outcome is why the accusation that this is intentional is a very very serious accusation and not one that should be tossed around by a bunch of half cocked internet sleuths (not saying you are one, just in general).
Oli6e 5y ago
Well the Truth is WMDs didn't exist. This is the post truth world. And in the post truth world, the 6 inch chimp brain under assault of an info tsunami it has no capacity to fully grok, has only one choice - to escape reality, deny responsibility, judge, blame and demand that an imaginary entities descend from the heavens to clean up the mess. Guess what chimp troupe? It's not going to happen. Now get back to work.
- abnry 5y ago
  > This is the post truth world. Let's fight with our greatest might to make this a post-post-truth world.
8note 5y ago
I wouldn't consider china to be responsible for everyone else's shit response though. Those responses are way more interesting, too. Taking another 20% chance off of a lab leak happening again doesn't fix that the US government will pretend a virus doesn't exist while it's killing people
cjohansson 5y ago
> Truth should be the highest priority This was the ideal for the Enlightenment, because the truth is good and from God. However we now live in the postmodern philosophy were truth is merely a political instrument and has no longer a holy status

by abnry 5y ago

bamboozled 5y ago

Isn’t this the problem? China knows there will be consequences if it was “China” who did it? Obviously a major ego bruising. Who cares who did it, naturally it will be more evidence that communist dictatorships aren’t the best way to run things, but they’re never going to share the truth if that means a flogging.

8note 5y ago
I'd think the biggest consequence would be that another virus is released or mutates that isn't china specific, and the governments are just as unprepared as they were in 2019, since they fixed the lab leak problem instead of the being prepared problem
smhost 5y ago
You mean it would just be more evidence that communist republics aren't the best way to run things for America. China seems to be doing fine.
- largbae 5y ago
  Absolutely, no freedom of speech to say otherwise!

scotty79 5y ago

If truth is unknowable next best thing to care about are feelings. And you pretty much can't disprove lab leak idea at this point because there can't exist any sufficient evidence against it to convince people who believe in it. Even if you just personally let them inside the lab and gave them access to all documents the only thing they would find would be next suspicious clues regardless of what would actually happened. And even if there was very little they managed to find suspicious they'd say it's because evidence was removed and they are being lied to.

cscurmudgeon 5y ago
> If truth is unknowable next best thing to care about are feelings. The truth became unknowable due to feelings.
- cunthorpe 5y ago
  Sounds like they are succeeding in their intent then.
- scotty79 5y ago
  Truth in this case is unknowable because absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. And what we have after more than a year of people wondering about this idea is just absence of evidence.
  - cscurmudgeon 5y ago
    In Science, one year is nothing. It will become knowable with international pressure. Giving up midway is not the solution.
    - scotty79 5y ago
      Midway to what? If there was any conclusive evidence that they had a sample of covid or its ancestor in that lab before late 2019 it could have been destroyed without a trace right after. You'll be always left with nothing more than accusations that can't be disproven (or proven). The only thing that might put this thing to rest is further research on coronaviruses in animals and humans especially the ones that spread asympthomatically which are way harder to even find. And maybe some day we'll discover some ancestor of covid somewhere. But it still won't put the lab leak hypothesis to rest if it's found in bats. Only if ancestor of covid is actually human coronavirus (other then the ones we discovered so far because they cause symptoms of common cold) and is detected in historical tissue samples from humans from before 2019 then maybe most people will rule out lab leak. Meanwhile get ready for decades of blaming China for the pandemic.

eschaton 5y ago

So if a restaurant worker in California happens to do a poor job of washing their hands and a diner gets sick, does that mean America is to blame? There should absolutely be as deep as possible an investigation into the origins of the virus, but it needs to be dispassionate in all directions.

cscurmudgeon 5y ago
Yes. If the restaurant had a history of documented safety issues and the relevant regulatory government bodies didn't take action to rectify it. https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/14/state-department-cables-warned-safety-issues-wuhan-lab-studying-bat-coronaviruses/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/14/state-dep... https://www.businessinsider.com/us-officials-raised-alarms-about-safety-issues-in-wuhan-lab-report-2020-4 https://www.businessinsider.com/us-officials-raised-alarms-a... Btw, comparing a restaurant worker being sloppy and a supposedly BSL-4 lab functioning at the level of BSL-2 lab is not a good look. Also, China's govt. has much much more control over a govt. lab than US has over a restaurant in California. The analogy fails.
- 8note 5y ago
  The US has complete control over a restaurant in California. Its got a huge military and could nuke the place if it wanted to. Deciding not to is the same in both cases
  - cscurmudgeon 5y ago
    > The US has complete control over a restaurant in California No, it doesn't. > Its got a huge military and could nuke the place if it wanted to By this logic, the US govt. has control over every corner of earth. Also, was the US govt. running the place and ignoring safety warnings? Was the restaurant possible responsible for a global pandemic? The analogy is stupid and not worth discussing more. All I am getting from this is that people think a restaurant I n US has the same level of responsibility as the lab in Wuhan.
karaterobot 5y ago

nuclearnice1 5y ago

> If China did have a lab that leaked the virus, they _are_ to blame. I think you’re misunderstanding the bit you are quoting. Of course China is to blame if they had a lab leak. The comment is instead making the point that most of those who are blaming China are not doing it motivated from a reasonable belief that there was a lab leak. Rather they are motivated by the opportunity to use China as a political tool to avoid blame for their own failures in dealing with the pandemic.

handmodel 5y ago
It still seems a bit silly not to investigate this fully. After 9/11 there was a failure in airplane protocol to not have bolted pilot doors and to not aggressively fight hijackers. I wouldn't say investigating Saudi Arabia should have been avoided - even if there had been voices at the TSA who wanted to distract from their own failures.
- fieldcny 5y ago
  Let’s for a second assume not only that it was a lab leak, but that it was on purpose, what do you propose the response be?
  - handmodel 5y ago
    If they intentionally let out something that killed millions of people then it should be met with extremely hard sanctions or more to force change at the CCP. If you let a country intentionally kills hundreds of thousands of people and enact no penalty they will only escalate. Still - I'd say the chance it was intentional to be less than 1/1000. Chance it was by accident - and that they covered it up - to be fairly high.
    - fieldcny 5y ago
      I don’t think anyone disputes that they covered up the severity, that was clear in real-time. The question is if this was an intentional lab leak as is being suggested, I’m curious to know what people expect to happen. As you pointed out this has killed millions of people, seems like people are angling for a war. That outcome is why the accusation that this is intentional is a very very serious accusation and not one that should be tossed around by a bunch of half cocked internet sleuths (not saying you are one, just in general).

Oli6e 5y ago

Well the Truth is WMDs didn't exist. This is the post truth world. And in the post truth world, the 6 inch chimp brain under assault of an info tsunami it has no capacity to fully grok, has only one choice - to escape reality, deny responsibility, judge, blame and demand that an imaginary entities descend from the heavens to clean up the mess. Guess what chimp troupe? It's not going to happen. Now get back to work.

abnry 5y ago
> This is the post truth world. Let's fight with our greatest might to make this a post-post-truth world.

8note 5y ago

I wouldn't consider china to be responsible for everyone else's shit response though. Those responses are way more interesting, too. Taking another 20% chance off of a lab leak happening again doesn't fix that the US government will pretend a virus doesn't exist while it's killing people

cjohansson 5y ago

> Truth should be the highest priority This was the ideal for the Enlightenment, because the truth is good and from God. However we now live in the postmodern philosophy were truth is merely a political instrument and has no longer a holy status