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> Education does not significantly improve outcomes. Period. Define "significant". People who don't graduate high school do much worse than people who graduat

> Education does not significantly improve outcomes. Period. Define "significant". People who don't graduate high school do much worse than people who graduate from college on average. Even if you only graduate high school, you'll (on average) make half as much over your lifetime as someone who graduated with a Master's Degree [1]. Right now (on average) - people who dropped out of college make nearly 1/3rd as much as people who graduated with a Master's Degree [2]. You're also 36x more likely to be in prison [3]. Only ~10% of the >25 population has not graduated high school. Despite that, 80% of prisoners have not graduated from high school. ~18% of high school drop outs are in prison. Less than 0.5% of the rest of the population is in prison. You're also almost 50% more likely to be obese (mostly because you're more likely to be poor and live somewhere un-walkable) [4]. You also have a ~13% shorter lifespan (9 less years) [5]. Sure - an education isn't a license to be in the top 1% or have a perfect life - but it certainly helps... [1] https://www.aplu.org/projects-and-initiatives/college-costs-tuition-and-financial-aid/publicuvalues/employment-earnings.html https://www.aplu.org/projects-and-initiatives/college-costs-... [2] https://study.com/articles/How_Much_More_Do_College_Graduates_Earn_Than_Non-College_Graduates.html https://study.com/articles/How_Much_More_Do_College_Graduate... [3] https://slspotlight.com/opinion/2018/03/19/high-school-dropouts-more-likely-to-go-to-prison/ https://slspotlight.com/opinion/2018/03/19/high-school-dropo... [4] http://educationbythenumbers.org/content/education-might-be-the-next-weight-loss-fad-obesity-rate-much-lower-among-college-grads_240/ http://educationbythenumbers.org/content/education-might-be-... [5] https://www.tc.columbia.edu/articles/2005/october/high-school-dropouts-have-lower-life-expectancy/#:~:text=High%20school%20dropouts%20have%20a,shorter%20than%20high%20school%20graduates.&text=High%20school%20dropouts%20have%20a%20life%20expectancy%20that's%20nine%20years,Teachers%20College%20at%20Columbia%20University https://www.tc.columbia.edu/articles/2005/october/high-schoo...

cuddlybacon 5y ago
Those data points don't disagree with wyager's point. Both the the Signalling Theory they are advocating and the Human Capital Development (HCD) that I assume you are advocating would make the same predictions on those life indicators you listed. The difference between the theories is which causes which: does consuming education cause people to have more of the traits that cause good life outcomes OR do the traits that cause good life outcomes also cause people to consume more education? Pure HCD theory says it is only the first. Pure signalling says only the second. The two can be mixed. What mix people believe in is important as the two theories result in very different policy goals for our education system. But both agree that people with more education are going to earn more, commit fewer crimes, experience fewer crimes, be healthier, live longer, etc, etc, etc.
HPsquared 5y ago
All mere correlations, which don't refute GP's claim.
- onlyrealcuzzo 5y ago
  When you make a bold claim that "Education does not significantly improve outcomes. Period." and correlations with every positive outcome are very high - the burden is on you to prove a non-causal link, not me. But of course, proving causation is near impossible. So people love to make bold claims with no data and just say "prove me".
  - wyager 5y ago
    > and correlations with every positive outcome are very high I explained why in the top-level post. People who were going to get positive outcomes anyway are good at getting into good schools. > the burden is on you to prove a non-causal link, not me. This isn’t Reddit - I wouldn’t drop some nonsense about made up “burden of proof” and expect anyone to buy it. It’s also rude to make objections like this when you clearly haven’t either considered the point you’re responding to (of course people who went to college do better in life - think about why that might be, under my model, and refute that if you can) or actually done the research into the presence or absence of a causal link. There are 30 years of twin studies demonstrating conclusively that education is not an especially strong predictive factor in adult attainment.

cuddlybacon 5y ago

Those data points don't disagree with wyager's point. Both the the Signalling Theory they are advocating and the Human Capital Development (HCD) that I assume you are advocating would make the same predictions on those life indicators you listed. The difference between the theories is which causes which: does consuming education cause people to have more of the traits that cause good life outcomes OR do the traits that cause good life outcomes also cause people to consume more education? Pure HCD theory says it is only the first. Pure signalling says only the second. The two can be mixed. What mix people believe in is important as the two theories result in very different policy goals for our education system. But both agree that people with more education are going to earn more, commit fewer crimes, experience fewer crimes, be healthier, live longer, etc, etc, etc.

HPsquared 5y ago

All mere correlations, which don't refute GP's claim.

onlyrealcuzzo 5y ago
When you make a bold claim that "Education does not significantly improve outcomes. Period." and correlations with every positive outcome are very high - the burden is on you to prove a non-causal link, not me. But of course, proving causation is near impossible. So people love to make bold claims with no data and just say "prove me".
- wyager 5y ago
  > and correlations with every positive outcome are very high I explained why in the top-level post. People who were going to get positive outcomes anyway are good at getting into good schools. > the burden is on you to prove a non-causal link, not me. This isn’t Reddit - I wouldn’t drop some nonsense about made up “burden of proof” and expect anyone to buy it. It’s also rude to make objections like this when you clearly haven’t either considered the point you’re responding to (of course people who went to college do better in life - think about why that might be, under my model, and refute that if you can) or actually done the research into the presence or absence of a causal link. There are 30 years of twin studies demonstrating conclusively that education is not an especially strong predictive factor in adult attainment.