4 ms·

Nope, we don’t add up prison time in Germany for repeating the same or related crimes over and over. On top, the 10/15 years are the maximum and barely reached.

by nkmnz 5y ago

Nope, we don’t add up prison time in Germany for repeating the same or related crimes over and over. On top, the 10/15 years are the maximum and barely reached. E.g. Uli Hoeneß, ex-manager of the soccer club Bayern Munich, got 3.5 years for evasion of ~30m dollar in a total of 7 counts, but could actually leave prison after sth like two years, 1.5 of which where „open jail time“, so he could go to work and only had to sleep in jail.

javagram 5y ago
> Nope, we don’t add up prison time in Germany for repeating the same or related crimes over and over. On top, the 10/15 years are the maximum and barely reached. The USA is similar, sentences are often served concurrently meaning the headline numbers don’t get added up. Headlines reflect the absolute maximum penalties but there’s something called the Sentencing Guidelines that is used to set the actual length of the sentences and whether they are concurrent. https://www.ussc.gov/guidelines/introducing-guidelines-app https://www.ussc.gov/guidelines/introducing-guidelines-app
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > but there’s something called the Sentencing Guideline But which are, as the name suggests, “more what you’d call guidelines than actual rules.” Still, a better measure of likely sentence than naively adding up statutory maxima for individual counts.
  - stjohnswarts 5y ago
    I think the Feds were after him pretty hard, they are rather vindictive and take his types of statements personally and that they encourage others to try and beat the system as well. Rarely is it only "the crime". Political ambition and Puritanical outlooks on morality often figure in with federal prosecutors.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > Political ambition and Puritanical outlooks on morality often figure in with federal prosecutors. Perhaps, but prosecutors don’t unilaterally set sentences, and neither of those are either guidelines factors or things that you can cite to get a trial court to depart from (and an appeals court to uphold departure from) the guidelines.
- nkmnz 5y ago
  Interestingly, I’ve just listened to Kahneman’s “Noise”, which features a whole chapter about Sentencing Guidelines in the US! Very good book!
fastball 5y ago
Are you holding that up as an example of a functional justice system? Because that strikes me as more dysfunctional, where people are getting preferential treatment because they're part of the German footie machine.
- nkmnz 5y ago
  The example is just the one that’s most well known in Germany, but almost 4 years for tax evasion is in fact a high sentence and far from preferential treatment, taking into account that Hoeneß turned himself in voluntarily which was, due to mistakes of his lawyers, not accounted for in court. Better tax lawyers could have probably prevented jail time all together in such a scenario. „Open jail“ is the usual way to go for confessed and remorseful, non-violent prisoners with a job and a stable social environment. He paid roughly 50m dollars on top of that, btw.
  - hda111 5y ago
    But why do you chose this example? It’s not realistic at all. Maybe if John was German and also involved in German football. But as German business man he would have sentenced to 10 years.
    - nkmnz 5y ago
      As I said, it’s a well known case. But it seems like you can show proof of “regular” German business men or women who were punished much harder? Would you be so kind to drop some names and links?
hda111 5y ago
> Uli Hoeneß That would be an example for someone punished lightly. If you and I did this it would be near maximum possible. Some people are more equal.
- nkmnz 5y ago
  This is simply not true. You and me would be smart enough to hire lawyers that can file a proper „Selbstanzeige“ according to §371 Abgabenordnung, which would prevent us from going to jail altogether ;-)

by nkmnz 5y ago

javagram 5y ago

> Nope, we don’t add up prison time in Germany for repeating the same or related crimes over and over. On top, the 10/15 years are the maximum and barely reached. The USA is similar, sentences are often served concurrently meaning the headline numbers don’t get added up. Headlines reflect the absolute maximum penalties but there’s something called the Sentencing Guidelines that is used to set the actual length of the sentences and whether they are concurrent. https://www.ussc.gov/guidelines/introducing-guidelines-app https://www.ussc.gov/guidelines/introducing-guidelines-app

dragonwriter 5y ago
> but there’s something called the Sentencing Guideline But which are, as the name suggests, “more what you’d call guidelines than actual rules.” Still, a better measure of likely sentence than naively adding up statutory maxima for individual counts.
- stjohnswarts 5y ago
  I think the Feds were after him pretty hard, they are rather vindictive and take his types of statements personally and that they encourage others to try and beat the system as well. Rarely is it only "the crime". Political ambition and Puritanical outlooks on morality often figure in with federal prosecutors.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > Political ambition and Puritanical outlooks on morality often figure in with federal prosecutors. Perhaps, but prosecutors don’t unilaterally set sentences, and neither of those are either guidelines factors or things that you can cite to get a trial court to depart from (and an appeals court to uphold departure from) the guidelines.
nkmnz 5y ago
Interestingly, I’ve just listened to Kahneman’s “Noise”, which features a whole chapter about Sentencing Guidelines in the US! Very good book!

fastball 5y ago

Are you holding that up as an example of a functional justice system? Because that strikes me as more dysfunctional, where people are getting preferential treatment because they're part of the German footie machine.

nkmnz 5y ago
The example is just the one that’s most well known in Germany, but almost 4 years for tax evasion is in fact a high sentence and far from preferential treatment, taking into account that Hoeneß turned himself in voluntarily which was, due to mistakes of his lawyers, not accounted for in court. Better tax lawyers could have probably prevented jail time all together in such a scenario. „Open jail“ is the usual way to go for confessed and remorseful, non-violent prisoners with a job and a stable social environment. He paid roughly 50m dollars on top of that, btw.
- hda111 5y ago
  But why do you chose this example? It’s not realistic at all. Maybe if John was German and also involved in German football. But as German business man he would have sentenced to 10 years.
  - nkmnz 5y ago
    As I said, it’s a well known case. But it seems like you can show proof of “regular” German business men or women who were punished much harder? Would you be so kind to drop some names and links?

hda111 5y ago

> Uli Hoeneß That would be an example for someone punished lightly. If you and I did this it would be near maximum possible. Some people are more equal.

nkmnz 5y ago
This is simply not true. You and me would be smart enough to hire lawyers that can file a proper „Selbstanzeige“ according to §371 Abgabenordnung, which would prevent us from going to jail altogether ;-)