5 ms·

Well, sure. If you ask people whether they consider Black and Asian men equally as sex partners, the numbers would also fall through the floor. This doesn't mea

by chc 5y ago

Well, sure. If you ask people whether they consider Black and Asian men equally as sex partners, the numbers would also fall through the floor. This doesn't mean Black or Asian men are less of men, or even that they're necessarily against either of those groups, it just means people have preferences in what their partners' bodies are like. My point is just that "trans women are women and trans men are men" is actually a common opinion, contrary to the claim in the comment I was replying to.

jl6 5y ago
I think you may have missed the point in GP’s post. “Trans-women are women” is a common opinion in a casual context (like when greeting a colleague in an office), but in contexts where the stakes are higher (like when choosing a sexual partner), very few will treat trans-women as women.
- s1artibartfast 5y ago
  Exactly my point. Many hold the philosophy that discriminating between the two in any context is an attack. Most heterosexual men identify as being attracted to women, and don't hold trans women in that category.
- chc 5y ago
  I don't think this conclusion is justified by the data, though. If this were just a matter of "they'll humor trans people, but everyone secretly knows trans women are men and treats them accordingly," you'd expect gay men to generally be attracted to trans women. But by all accounts I've heard, the people who are attracted to trans women tend to be straight men, just like any other woman. It's true that straight men are generally less likely to be attracted to trans women than cis women, but this just shows that being transgender is unattractive to them. Gay men are even less likely to be attracted to trans women, so it's clearly not as simple as "people actually perceive them as male and treat them accordingly."
  - jl6 5y ago
    Here’s some actual data that suggests “trans women are women for dating purposes” is the opinion of only a small minority: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0265407518779139?journalCode=spra& https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/026540751877913...
    - chc 5y ago
      This data supports my point. It does not say "trans women are treated as men for purposes of dating," it says "trans women are not broadly considered attractive." They specifically call out that few people of any sexual orientation want to date trans women. But those who are interested in dating trans women tend to be people who date women.
      - s1artibartfast 5y ago
        This paper article cites that 3% of strait people would consider dating a hypothetical trans person of the gender they are attracted to. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/sex-sexuality-and-romance/202104/will-straight-men-and-women-date-trans-person%3famp https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog...
        chillwaves 5y ago
        The question is not "would you consider a trans person as a sexual partner" -- the question is, "do you consider a trans person to be the gender they identify as". There are a lot of women I would not want to sleep with. Does not mean I question their gender.
        s1artibartfast 5y ago
        It shows that most people don't consider them equivalent to women as sexual partners. We were discussing how in some demands trans people are considered and are not considered as their gender of choice. If you ask would you date a woman and someone says yes, then ask would you date a trans woman and they say no, that shows that they are differentiated for the purposes of this question
darkerside 5y ago
I don't think that passes the smell test. What study would you cite to support that assertion? You could ask whether there is a study to assert parent poster's assertion, too. All I could say is that the burden of proof seems to fall on you with your statement, but most would take parent's at face value.

by chc 5y ago

jl6 5y ago

I think you may have missed the point in GP’s post. “Trans-women are women” is a common opinion in a casual context (like when greeting a colleague in an office), but in contexts where the stakes are higher (like when choosing a sexual partner), very few will treat trans-women as women.

s1artibartfast 5y ago
Exactly my point. Many hold the philosophy that discriminating between the two in any context is an attack. Most heterosexual men identify as being attracted to women, and don't hold trans women in that category.
chc 5y ago
I don't think this conclusion is justified by the data, though. If this were just a matter of "they'll humor trans people, but everyone secretly knows trans women are men and treats them accordingly," you'd expect gay men to generally be attracted to trans women. But by all accounts I've heard, the people who are attracted to trans women tend to be straight men, just like any other woman. It's true that straight men are generally less likely to be attracted to trans women than cis women, but this just shows that being transgender is unattractive to them. Gay men are even less likely to be attracted to trans women, so it's clearly not as simple as "people actually perceive them as male and treat them accordingly."
- jl6 5y ago
  Here’s some actual data that suggests “trans women are women for dating purposes” is the opinion of only a small minority: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0265407518779139?journalCode=spra& https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/026540751877913...
  - chc 5y ago
    This data supports my point. It does not say "trans women are treated as men for purposes of dating," it says "trans women are not broadly considered attractive." They specifically call out that few people of any sexual orientation want to date trans women. But those who are interested in dating trans women tend to be people who date women.
    - s1artibartfast 5y ago
      This paper article cites that 3% of strait people would consider dating a hypothetical trans person of the gender they are attracted to. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/sex-sexuality-and-romance/202104/will-straight-men-and-women-date-trans-person%3famp https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog...
      - chillwaves 5y ago
        The question is not "would you consider a trans person as a sexual partner" -- the question is, "do you consider a trans person to be the gender they identify as". There are a lot of women I would not want to sleep with. Does not mean I question their gender.
        s1artibartfast 5y ago
        It shows that most people don't consider them equivalent to women as sexual partners. We were discussing how in some demands trans people are considered and are not considered as their gender of choice. If you ask would you date a woman and someone says yes, then ask would you date a trans woman and they say no, that shows that they are differentiated for the purposes of this question

darkerside 5y ago

I don't think that passes the smell test. What study would you cite to support that assertion? You could ask whether there is a study to assert parent poster's assertion, too. All I could say is that the burden of proof seems to fall on you with your statement, but most would take parent's at face value.