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The US has some of the best-funded public schools in the world and some of the worst outcomes in public schools. “Funding” is a red herring at best and an excus

by wyager 5y ago

The US has some of the best-funded public schools in the world and some of the worst outcomes in public schools. “Funding” is a red herring at best and an excuse for extractive politics in reality. It turns out that life outcomes have approximately nothing whatsoever to do with how much money your childhood schools got. It also strikes me as quite perverse to blame people who are able to move their children out of schools that have become terrible (through no fault of their own).

water8 5y ago
> It also strikes me as quite perverse to blame people who are able to move their children out of schools that have become terrible How do some schools become terrible if they are public and well funded? They become terrible because funding is not distributed evenly.
dwater 5y ago
Yes, the problem is not school funding but school segregation. It takes more than money to help high needs students, it takes attention and support. If your child needs attention and support and they go to a school where the majority of their peers have the same needs, none of them will get it.
- wyager 5y ago
  Hold on… your claim is that students are not having their special needs met, and your solution is to put them in a school that’s even less equipped to handle their special needs? Schools absolutely should be segregated, as much as possible, by things like academic ability. That’s the only way schools can effectively meet students where they’re at. It takes a totally different strategy to help a low-performing student catch up vs helping a high-performing student excel. By forcing those kids into the same classroom, you’re not helping either of them.
  - dwater 5y ago
    My claim is that more of the students that attend schools in impoverished areas need significant support beyond being presented instructional content than students in affluent areas, and that when students with those high needs are concentrated they are less likely to have them met. My experience as a secondary school teacher in multiple Title 1 schools was that when you are responsible for a classroom of 30 students, once you have more than a few with high needs (3-5 in my experience) you are unable to provide any of them the support they need. When I taught in an affluent school, I saw that students who were in Special Education programs were given a lot more personal attention and support, which provided them the structure they needed to be successful. Students where those needs are concentrated don't get the attention and support and as a result are very, very unlikely to be successful academically.
    - wyager 5y ago
      > and that when students with those high needs are concentrated they are less likely to have them met. This is totally opposite to my experience in public school through age 11. I never got the advanced instruction I needed, trying to mix like 4-6 stddev of ability in a single classroom never worked, and no one on the low end really benefitted from it.
      - dwater 5y ago
        Your experience is not the issue I was addressing and it's not really the subject of the original article. I, and in my interpretation the article, was talking about the problem of education not providing the opportunity of success for those of lower means that has typically been considered the "American Dream". Your anecdote does not appear to contradict my statement. I made a statement about students with high needs being concentrated in a class or school overwhelming the system, and you made a statement about being a single student with exceptional ability in what I interpreted to be a typical American classroom setting not getting personalized instruction.
annoyingnoob 5y ago
I live in a median income neighborhood that is next to a low income neighborhood. The school is funded just fine, and we passed a local bond measure to ensure the school could build and grow. The student population is pretty mixed. The only thing holding this school back is the people that run it. I moved my kids to private school so they could actually get an education instead of just a babysitter.
majormajor 5y ago
> It also strikes me as quite perverse to blame people who are able to move their children out of schools that have become terrible (through no fault of their own). People not being involved is a big way schools become terrible. If the people who would push for quality can simply opt out instead, what's left? If the people who know what it takes to succeed abandon the system, who left is supposed to even know what is required to make the public system succeed? Any loss of funding pales in comparison to lost passion and expertise. Most public services that the well-off don't have to use are going to suck, because the only victims are by definition the ones without much power to make change!
machiaweliczny 5y ago
Money isn't relevant but reputation is. My primary school was best is county(so like best/2M people). I would bet that without it I wouldn't be where I am now. I know how drastic difference is because some of my siblings went to local school. Most difference IMO is in seeding ambition and giving motivation and encouragement early in life. I was just told I can achieve anything I want and I just know it, while all they got was fear, dumb teachers and punishment for out-of-the-box thinking. Actually teachers unions are why you can't fire the worst teachers there. I think you cannot get really rich without knowing such people and easiest way where people mix are extracircullar activities so I recommend sparing some $ for kids on those.

by wyager 5y ago

water8 5y ago

> It also strikes me as quite perverse to blame people who are able to move their children out of schools that have become terrible How do some schools become terrible if they are public and well funded? They become terrible because funding is not distributed evenly.

dwater 5y ago

Yes, the problem is not school funding but school segregation. It takes more than money to help high needs students, it takes attention and support. If your child needs attention and support and they go to a school where the majority of their peers have the same needs, none of them will get it.

wyager 5y ago
Hold on… your claim is that students are not having their special needs met, and your solution is to put them in a school that’s even less equipped to handle their special needs? Schools absolutely should be segregated, as much as possible, by things like academic ability. That’s the only way schools can effectively meet students where they’re at. It takes a totally different strategy to help a low-performing student catch up vs helping a high-performing student excel. By forcing those kids into the same classroom, you’re not helping either of them.
- dwater 5y ago
  My claim is that more of the students that attend schools in impoverished areas need significant support beyond being presented instructional content than students in affluent areas, and that when students with those high needs are concentrated they are less likely to have them met. My experience as a secondary school teacher in multiple Title 1 schools was that when you are responsible for a classroom of 30 students, once you have more than a few with high needs (3-5 in my experience) you are unable to provide any of them the support they need. When I taught in an affluent school, I saw that students who were in Special Education programs were given a lot more personal attention and support, which provided them the structure they needed to be successful. Students where those needs are concentrated don't get the attention and support and as a result are very, very unlikely to be successful academically.
  - wyager 5y ago
    > and that when students with those high needs are concentrated they are less likely to have them met. This is totally opposite to my experience in public school through age 11. I never got the advanced instruction I needed, trying to mix like 4-6 stddev of ability in a single classroom never worked, and no one on the low end really benefitted from it.
    - dwater 5y ago
      Your experience is not the issue I was addressing and it's not really the subject of the original article. I, and in my interpretation the article, was talking about the problem of education not providing the opportunity of success for those of lower means that has typically been considered the "American Dream". Your anecdote does not appear to contradict my statement. I made a statement about students with high needs being concentrated in a class or school overwhelming the system, and you made a statement about being a single student with exceptional ability in what I interpreted to be a typical American classroom setting not getting personalized instruction.

annoyingnoob 5y ago

I live in a median income neighborhood that is next to a low income neighborhood. The school is funded just fine, and we passed a local bond measure to ensure the school could build and grow. The student population is pretty mixed. The only thing holding this school back is the people that run it. I moved my kids to private school so they could actually get an education instead of just a babysitter.

majormajor 5y ago

> It also strikes me as quite perverse to blame people who are able to move their children out of schools that have become terrible (through no fault of their own). People not being involved is a big way schools become terrible. If the people who would push for quality can simply opt out instead, what's left? If the people who know what it takes to succeed abandon the system, who left is supposed to even know what is required to make the public system succeed? Any loss of funding pales in comparison to lost passion and expertise. Most public services that the well-off don't have to use are going to suck, because the only victims are by definition the ones without much power to make change!

machiaweliczny 5y ago

Money isn't relevant but reputation is. My primary school was best is county(so like best/2M people). I would bet that without it I wouldn't be where I am now. I know how drastic difference is because some of my siblings went to local school. Most difference IMO is in seeding ambition and giving motivation and encouragement early in life. I was just told I can achieve anything I want and I just know it, while all they got was fear, dumb teachers and punishment for out-of-the-box thinking. Actually teachers unions are why you can't fire the worst teachers there. I think you cannot get really rich without knowing such people and easiest way where people mix are extracircullar activities so I recommend sparing some $ for kids on those.