5 ms·

> Personally I don't think this is very important compared to other topics. There are more blind people than trans people. There are more people with Alzheimer'

> Personally I don't think this is very important compared to other topics. There are more blind people than trans people. There are more people with Alzheimer's than trans people. There are more people in the US who have lost a limb than trans people. It's not impactful in terms of the number of people, but its a civil rights issue for those on the left. And for those on the right its just one more group trying to change things from the status quo. It's also a complex issue. I sit pretty far on the left, but the various issues related to trans policy I find to often not have a clear solution -- most notably around sports and fairness. Sigh.

munk-a 5y ago
Honestly though the question around sports fairness is less a problem raised by trans people and more just an existing issue exposed. Female and male bodies work differently on average but there are a good number of women more fit and physically capable than 99% of men - gender is not an independent variable in physical fitness but I do wonder if there's really much of a reason to keep insisting that the genders be separated into exclusive leagues.
- flavius29663 5y ago
  > I do wonder if there's really much of a reason to keep insisting that the genders be separated into exclusive leagues. The world champion team of female soccer gets beat by a boys under 15 high school team https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/a-dallas-fc-under-15-boys-squad-beat-the-u-s-womens-national-team-in-a-scrimmage/ https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/a-dallas-fc-under-15-b... The 203rd male tennis player absolutely crushes the Williams sisters https://www.marca.com/en/more-sports/2017/06/27/595296da468aeb99218b464c.html https://www.marca.com/en/more-sports/2017/06/27/595296da468a... Women 100m record is 10.49. High-schoolers can run in 10.00 s https://www.athletic.net/TrackAndField/Athlete.aspx?AID=12657819 https://www.athletic.net/TrackAndField/Athlete.aspx?AID=1265... Men's record is under 10. If you do away with the women leagues, you will see 99% males in almost all sports.
  - munk-a 5y ago
    While we do have the special olympics, there are all sorts of classes of people who lack genetic traits to excel at sports and no allowance is made for them to compete within their own bracket - the only bracket we have is men and women. I will admit that this is not a hill I'll die on though - I have almost no interest in sports as a profession so it's a fair bit out of my wheelhouse.
    - fork1 5y ago
      There is plenty of brackets so all can play at their respectives levels, separation in different leagues for collective sports, different levels in individual sports, etc. You can have fun in your local amateur <whatever>, but there would not be any point in a game against professionals. And at the top level, olympics or international competitions, there would be no match in mixed genders for most sports.
      - darkerside 5y ago
        There are weight classes in weightlifting, boxing etc
        inkblotuniverse 5y ago
        Men would win every weight class due to stronger ski, connective tissues, different and more efficient bone structure...
Spivak 5y ago
Sports fairness is basically a transphobe dogwhistle at this point. Major athletic organizations already have policies in place that say that trans women can’t compete unless x,y,z criteria are met which is typically a minimum number of years on HRT and T levels not more than something. The issue is that there is a trade-off being made here. A trans woman athlete likely has a better bone structure than the average cis woman but not better than the most naturally gifted cis female athletes. Athletic orgs have largely decided that this is fine and it’s not a significant enough advantage to care about because the question for them was “how can trans women compete” not “if trans women can compete.” But then it’s such an easy issue to drive a wedge on because you can get people riled up about whether trans women should be able to compete with a sprinkling of misinformation about what HRT does and dash of “so a man can just say he’s a woman and compete.”
- fork1 5y ago
  Not just bones. Muscle mass and the rest doesn't just disappear. In the sport i do (rugby), it's been evaluated to be a danger to players (increased risk of injury), and i would wager most contact sports are similar.
  - Spivak 5y ago
    Muscle mass does just disappear in the exact same way as it does when someone stops steroids. It’s not instantaneous which is why places require 12-24 months of constant hormones. Also you picked the one single example where trans women have been sorta kinda banned with basically no concrete justification, caused the world to roast them publicly, and then clubs largely ignored them and came up with their own rules — like France and the US changed the requirements to time on HRT and T levels like every other sport and the UK did a height and weight limit which, while odd, is actually a lower bar than time on HRT. Outright bans on trans women will basically never be necessary when HRT is so effective. If by some chance there is a sport where it’s not enough you can start imposing greater restrictions like requiring trans women reach a certain (low) weight to shed any pre-transition muscle.
- kenjackson 5y ago
  What about basketball as another example. Height is probably the single most important physical attribute of the game and the height advantage men have is overwhelming. HRT after puberty has no impact on height.

munk-a 5y ago

Honestly though the question around sports fairness is less a problem raised by trans people and more just an existing issue exposed. Female and male bodies work differently on average but there are a good number of women more fit and physically capable than 99% of men - gender is not an independent variable in physical fitness but I do wonder if there's really much of a reason to keep insisting that the genders be separated into exclusive leagues.

flavius29663 5y ago
> I do wonder if there's really much of a reason to keep insisting that the genders be separated into exclusive leagues. The world champion team of female soccer gets beat by a boys under 15 high school team https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/a-dallas-fc-under-15-boys-squad-beat-the-u-s-womens-national-team-in-a-scrimmage/ https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/a-dallas-fc-under-15-b... The 203rd male tennis player absolutely crushes the Williams sisters https://www.marca.com/en/more-sports/2017/06/27/595296da468aeb99218b464c.html https://www.marca.com/en/more-sports/2017/06/27/595296da468a... Women 100m record is 10.49. High-schoolers can run in 10.00 s https://www.athletic.net/TrackAndField/Athlete.aspx?AID=12657819 https://www.athletic.net/TrackAndField/Athlete.aspx?AID=1265... Men's record is under 10. If you do away with the women leagues, you will see 99% males in almost all sports.
- munk-a 5y ago
  While we do have the special olympics, there are all sorts of classes of people who lack genetic traits to excel at sports and no allowance is made for them to compete within their own bracket - the only bracket we have is men and women. I will admit that this is not a hill I'll die on though - I have almost no interest in sports as a profession so it's a fair bit out of my wheelhouse.
  - fork1 5y ago
    There is plenty of brackets so all can play at their respectives levels, separation in different leagues for collective sports, different levels in individual sports, etc. You can have fun in your local amateur <whatever>, but there would not be any point in a game against professionals. And at the top level, olympics or international competitions, there would be no match in mixed genders for most sports.
    - darkerside 5y ago
      There are weight classes in weightlifting, boxing etc
      - inkblotuniverse 5y ago
        Men would win every weight class due to stronger ski, connective tissues, different and more efficient bone structure...

Spivak 5y ago

Sports fairness is basically a transphobe dogwhistle at this point. Major athletic organizations already have policies in place that say that trans women can’t compete unless x,y,z criteria are met which is typically a minimum number of years on HRT and T levels not more than something. The issue is that there is a trade-off being made here. A trans woman athlete likely has a better bone structure than the average cis woman but not better than the most naturally gifted cis female athletes. Athletic orgs have largely decided that this is fine and it’s not a significant enough advantage to care about because the question for them was “how can trans women compete” not “if trans women can compete.” But then it’s such an easy issue to drive a wedge on because you can get people riled up about whether trans women should be able to compete with a sprinkling of misinformation about what HRT does and dash of “so a man can just say he’s a woman and compete.”

fork1 5y ago
Not just bones. Muscle mass and the rest doesn't just disappear. In the sport i do (rugby), it's been evaluated to be a danger to players (increased risk of injury), and i would wager most contact sports are similar.
- Spivak 5y ago
  Muscle mass does just disappear in the exact same way as it does when someone stops steroids. It’s not instantaneous which is why places require 12-24 months of constant hormones. Also you picked the one single example where trans women have been sorta kinda banned with basically no concrete justification, caused the world to roast them publicly, and then clubs largely ignored them and came up with their own rules — like France and the US changed the requirements to time on HRT and T levels like every other sport and the UK did a height and weight limit which, while odd, is actually a lower bar than time on HRT. Outright bans on trans women will basically never be necessary when HRT is so effective. If by some chance there is a sport where it’s not enough you can start imposing greater restrictions like requiring trans women reach a certain (low) weight to shed any pre-transition muscle.
kenjackson 5y ago
What about basketball as another example. Height is probably the single most important physical attribute of the game and the height advantage men have is overwhelming. HRT after puberty has no impact on height.