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> But a LOT of teenagers, particularly girls, go through a period of gender dysphoria when they hit puberty. What little research exists on the topic says that

> But a LOT of teenagers, particularly girls, go through a period of gender dysphoria when they hit puberty. What little research exists on the topic says that most of those girls will grow out of their gender dysphoria, and well-meaning attempts at gender reassignment surgery for them will backfire. Could you link to this research? This is a fraught topic that includes fraudulent studies and claims like this mean little without links.

handrous 5y ago
I can only pile on with anecdotal evidence from what my spouse has seen, working in middle schools: yeah, like half of kids who ask to start going by an opposite-gender name, ask to be addressed by different pronouns, start dressing differently, et c., in middle school end up changing their minds before they reach high school, and it is often girls. From what I have heard this does not, however, lead me to believe there's an epidemic of kids receiving medical intervention in support of this, who don't "really mean it". As best I can tell it just means puberty is weird and confusing sometimes, but that usually resolves itself (at least, more or less) after a bit, which should surprise no-one. I doubt many cases that are merely confusion or uncertainty or "experimenting" or whatever, reach the point of even having a conversation with a doctor about it. I could be wrong about that, but nothing I've heard has me worried about The Children. Suicide rates do, but not that.
- danShumway 5y ago
  I'll add onto this, if people are genuinely worried about invasive surgery, the policing of trans identity is counterproductive to addressing that concern. What would be productive is allowing kids to use different pronouns, allowing them to dress themselves the way they wish and allowing them to seek affirmative care and affirmative communities -- so that they can explore their own gender identity without feeling like they need to commit hard or lean in against opposition that tells them they're not really trans. To the extent that gender identity can be influenced by social norms, allowing kids to identify their own genders is a way of allowing them to safely experiment in that space without invasive surgeries that they might regret. But if everything becomes policing whether or not someone really is trans, if everything involves policing even minor interventions like puberty blockers, then of course kids who suspect they might be trans are going to think that surgery is the only way that they'll be accepted or feel comfortable -- because that's what "gender-critical" groups are telling them, they're telling them that having a certain body is a barrier to their identity. For some trans people, exploring gender is a process. Allowing people to feel safe and accepted during that process decreases the risk of rash decisions. And accepting them regardless of whether or not they pass for their gender decreases social pressure that might exist telling them they need to medically transition to be valid. It's not surprising that mocking gender fluidity, over-emphasizing physical attributes in gender identity, and restricting low-impact interventions like puberty blockers might make uncertain kids feel like they need to hard-commit to medically transitioning. It's not surprising that trans kids and trans-questioning kids would be alienated by that environment, and that they might be less willing to openly air their doubts and fears or seek external advice.
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    The gender critical are not policing trans identity; rather, trans-activists are doing the policing of gender expression by loudly insisting that any kind of socially non-normative gender expression should be seen as tantamount to and ipso facto equated with some sort of trans identity. Your own reference to "gender fluidity" as tantamount to a separate identity rather than a characteristics that all humans may share to a lesser or greater extent, is an especially clear example of this. Need I point out how this policing may be harmful to non-heteronormatively-expressing folks?
    - angus-prune 5y ago
      This description is the opposite of my experience of the trans community. In my experience of trans people they are welcoming of any combination of gender expression and identity and are universally supportive of gender exploration and non-traditional gender expression for trans and cis people alike.
      - zozbot234 5y ago
        Unfortunately, trans-activists are not at all co-extensive with 'the trans community'. Many self-proclaimed activists "for trans rights" are not even trans themselves, and pursue social positions, points of view and policies that are largely opposed by actual trans people.
        justinjlynn 5y ago
        Who? Your argument appears, to me, to be dangerously approaching what resembles that of a "true Scotsman" or "straw man" fallacy. You should provide some data and sources to back up your anecdotal observations or you risk appearing disingenuous in your discourse. Also, why is it that you refer to people who advocate for the validity of the trans experience as "trans activists" but insist on using the term "gender critical" to describe those who advocate for the position that the trans experience is invalid? Would not a more appropriate term be "anti-trans activists"? Is the resemblance to the "pro-choice/pro-life" argument - i.e. using a euphemism to avoid saying what the position is descriptively and clearly - purposeful?
- kaitai 5y ago
  Agree with you given my experience. Kids question many things (religion, cultural norms, fashion norms, etc) and gender is now something that one can question, so it happens. And why not? People have been wrestling with gender roles for centuries, from questions of royal succession to whether women could inherit property or not to suffrage. Yet gender roles continue to be rather prescriptive. What intelligent kid wouldn't dig into why? And why would they take the thoughts of "the olds" as the last word when youth have never done so in human history? So do what you'd do when your kid is rebelling against their religion or curfew or your selection of their college major. Talk about it and ask what's up. Express your own views, respectfully. Listen.
  - sirmike_ 5y ago
    This is it. Wrap it up. Shows over. This is all that a parent needs. Fin. -30-
- screye 5y ago
  The disappearing lesbian is certainly a trend that is being noticed. More and more women as coming out as trans instead of lesbian, and the 'lesbian until graduation' phenomenon was well known for decades before this. The general populace has a very shallow understanding of the distinction between gender vs sex. The academic/popular liberal community makes no attempt to clarify the distinctions and it leads to further confused middle/high schoolers.
honkdaddy 5y ago
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6095578/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6095578/ I don't think this study is perfect by any means, especially as the data is coming from parents of said teenage girls, but it's a place to start.
- pseudalopex 5y ago
  That study might be the most flawed I've ever seen. It relied on parents' perceptions like you said. And the author selected for parents who refused to accept their children coming out as trans. Among other problems.[1] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnc_KvWkiHw&t=3324s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnc_KvWkiHw&t=3324s
  - justinjlynn 5y ago
    Wow. You're right that's an amazingly badly constructed study. Low-n, indirect-non-patient self-report (parental reporting/perception bias) w/ no cross adjustment or multi-party correction. Biased recruitment practices... hecking YIKES. Oh, and of course, the methodology was soundly criticised and contextualised in the same journal; imagine that. - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6424477/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6424477/ > The level of evidence produced by the Dr. Littman’s study cannot generate a new diagnostic criterion relative to the time of presentation of the demands of medical and social gender affirmation. Surprise.
- lordCarbonFiber 5y ago
  Worth noting that that paper not only surveyed exclusively parents but also recruited exclusively from transphobic websites (small wonder the parents found weren't particularly supportive). To the point where the conclusions had to be drastically rolled back and these failures in experimental design highlighted [0]. It's also the start and end of anyone replicating those results. This is very misleading and equivalent to linking the now debunked paper saying vaccines cause autism then telling readers to go look for more research. For those in the back, trans people are the gender they say they are and the last people you should be asking for their opinion on a person's identity are their unsupportive parents. [0] https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0214157 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...

handrous 5y ago

I can only pile on with anecdotal evidence from what my spouse has seen, working in middle schools: yeah, like half of kids who ask to start going by an opposite-gender name, ask to be addressed by different pronouns, start dressing differently, et c., in middle school end up changing their minds before they reach high school, and it is often girls. From what I have heard this does not, however, lead me to believe there's an epidemic of kids receiving medical intervention in support of this, who don't "really mean it". As best I can tell it just means puberty is weird and confusing sometimes, but that usually resolves itself (at least, more or less) after a bit, which should surprise no-one. I doubt many cases that are merely confusion or uncertainty or "experimenting" or whatever, reach the point of even having a conversation with a doctor about it. I could be wrong about that, but nothing I've heard has me worried about The Children. Suicide rates do, but not that.

danShumway 5y ago
I'll add onto this, if people are genuinely worried about invasive surgery, the policing of trans identity is counterproductive to addressing that concern. What would be productive is allowing kids to use different pronouns, allowing them to dress themselves the way they wish and allowing them to seek affirmative care and affirmative communities -- so that they can explore their own gender identity without feeling like they need to commit hard or lean in against opposition that tells them they're not really trans. To the extent that gender identity can be influenced by social norms, allowing kids to identify their own genders is a way of allowing them to safely experiment in that space without invasive surgeries that they might regret. But if everything becomes policing whether or not someone really is trans, if everything involves policing even minor interventions like puberty blockers, then of course kids who suspect they might be trans are going to think that surgery is the only way that they'll be accepted or feel comfortable -- because that's what "gender-critical" groups are telling them, they're telling them that having a certain body is a barrier to their identity. For some trans people, exploring gender is a process. Allowing people to feel safe and accepted during that process decreases the risk of rash decisions. And accepting them regardless of whether or not they pass for their gender decreases social pressure that might exist telling them they need to medically transition to be valid. It's not surprising that mocking gender fluidity, over-emphasizing physical attributes in gender identity, and restricting low-impact interventions like puberty blockers might make uncertain kids feel like they need to hard-commit to medically transitioning. It's not surprising that trans kids and trans-questioning kids would be alienated by that environment, and that they might be less willing to openly air their doubts and fears or seek external advice.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  The gender critical are not policing trans identity; rather, trans-activists are doing the policing of gender expression by loudly insisting that any kind of socially non-normative gender expression should be seen as tantamount to and ipso facto equated with some sort of trans identity. Your own reference to "gender fluidity" as tantamount to a separate identity rather than a characteristics that all humans may share to a lesser or greater extent, is an especially clear example of this. Need I point out how this policing may be harmful to non-heteronormatively-expressing folks?
  - angus-prune 5y ago
    This description is the opposite of my experience of the trans community. In my experience of trans people they are welcoming of any combination of gender expression and identity and are universally supportive of gender exploration and non-traditional gender expression for trans and cis people alike.
    - zozbot234 5y ago
      Unfortunately, trans-activists are not at all co-extensive with 'the trans community'. Many self-proclaimed activists "for trans rights" are not even trans themselves, and pursue social positions, points of view and policies that are largely opposed by actual trans people.
      - justinjlynn 5y ago
        Who? Your argument appears, to me, to be dangerously approaching what resembles that of a "true Scotsman" or "straw man" fallacy. You should provide some data and sources to back up your anecdotal observations or you risk appearing disingenuous in your discourse. Also, why is it that you refer to people who advocate for the validity of the trans experience as "trans activists" but insist on using the term "gender critical" to describe those who advocate for the position that the trans experience is invalid? Would not a more appropriate term be "anti-trans activists"? Is the resemblance to the "pro-choice/pro-life" argument - i.e. using a euphemism to avoid saying what the position is descriptively and clearly - purposeful?
kaitai 5y ago
Agree with you given my experience. Kids question many things (religion, cultural norms, fashion norms, etc) and gender is now something that one can question, so it happens. And why not? People have been wrestling with gender roles for centuries, from questions of royal succession to whether women could inherit property or not to suffrage. Yet gender roles continue to be rather prescriptive. What intelligent kid wouldn't dig into why? And why would they take the thoughts of "the olds" as the last word when youth have never done so in human history? So do what you'd do when your kid is rebelling against their religion or curfew or your selection of their college major. Talk about it and ask what's up. Express your own views, respectfully. Listen.
- sirmike_ 5y ago
  This is it. Wrap it up. Shows over. This is all that a parent needs. Fin. -30-
screye 5y ago
The disappearing lesbian is certainly a trend that is being noticed. More and more women as coming out as trans instead of lesbian, and the 'lesbian until graduation' phenomenon was well known for decades before this. The general populace has a very shallow understanding of the distinction between gender vs sex. The academic/popular liberal community makes no attempt to clarify the distinctions and it leads to further confused middle/high schoolers.

honkdaddy 5y ago

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6095578/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6095578/ I don't think this study is perfect by any means, especially as the data is coming from parents of said teenage girls, but it's a place to start.

pseudalopex 5y ago
That study might be the most flawed I've ever seen. It relied on parents' perceptions like you said. And the author selected for parents who refused to accept their children coming out as trans. Among other problems.[1] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnc_KvWkiHw&t=3324s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnc_KvWkiHw&t=3324s
- justinjlynn 5y ago
  Wow. You're right that's an amazingly badly constructed study. Low-n, indirect-non-patient self-report (parental reporting/perception bias) w/ no cross adjustment or multi-party correction. Biased recruitment practices... hecking YIKES. Oh, and of course, the methodology was soundly criticised and contextualised in the same journal; imagine that. - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6424477/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6424477/ > The level of evidence produced by the Dr. Littman’s study cannot generate a new diagnostic criterion relative to the time of presentation of the demands of medical and social gender affirmation. Surprise.
lordCarbonFiber 5y ago
Worth noting that that paper not only surveyed exclusively parents but also recruited exclusively from transphobic websites (small wonder the parents found weren't particularly supportive). To the point where the conclusions had to be drastically rolled back and these failures in experimental design highlighted [0]. It's also the start and end of anyone replicating those results. This is very misleading and equivalent to linking the now debunked paper saying vaccines cause autism then telling readers to go look for more research. For those in the back, trans people are the gender they say they are and the last people you should be asking for their opinion on a person's identity are their unsupportive parents. [0] https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0214157 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...