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Impregnation and sexual assault are obviously not the same thing, and I am not combining them as if they are. Housing cis-women and trans-women creates a unique

Impregnation and sexual assault are obviously not the same thing, and I am not combining them as if they are. Housing cis-women and trans-women creates a unique situation where cis-women can be sexually assaulted AND impregnated. I don't dispute that cis-women can sexually assault other cis-women, and that sexual assault is a problem in men's prisons and women's prisons and exists with or without the presence of trans men and women. To completely stop sexual assault in prisons, people would have to be housed in separate cells. Housing cis-women and trans-women in the same cell does not stop the sexual assault problem.

jolux 5y ago
> I don't dispute that cis-women can sexually assault other cis-women, and that sexual assault is a problem in men's prisons and women's prisons and exists with or without the presence of trans men and women. In that case you're hard pressed to argue why housing trans women in women's prisons exacerbates this issue, unless you think trans women are more likely to be rapists. Excluding an entire population on the basis that some of them might rape people is not just if rape is already a problem. > To completely stop sexual assault in prisons, people would have to be housed in separate cells. I mostly agree, but it's very easy to construct a solution to these problems while ignoring the present reality. Almost no trans people are currently housed in prisons that accord with their gender identity, and 35% of trans people in prisons themselves report having been sexually assaulted in the past year as of 2015 [1]. The status quo is pretty dire for them too, and their safety should be weighed against the safety of the cis people they might otherwise be housed with. https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/transgender-women-are-nearly-always-incarcerated-men-s-putting-many-n1142436 https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/transgender-women-ar...
- fastball 5y ago
  Without any stats for transwomen in particular, human males are more likely to be rapists, and an intact transwoman is closer to a man than a ciswoman is, no? Unless you think that the reason men are more likely to be rapists is purely a result of their gender identity and has nothing to do with biology. With regards to the danger of trans people being sexually assaulted in prisons: yes, it is absolutely a problem. MyHypatia literally made the same point you're making in their original comment.
  - jolux 5y ago
    Side request: if it doesn't bother you too much I would prefer you refer to trans women with penises as trans women with penises rather than as "intact" trans women. Such phrasing suggests that trans women without penises are damaged. > Without any stats for transwomen in particular, human males are more likely to be rapists, and an intact transwoman is closer to a man than a ciswoman is, no? This argument is rather tangential. Is there any empirical evidence that trans women are more likely to sexually assault people than cis women? Is the median trans woman more likely to sexually assault people than cis women who have been convicted of sexual assault, or who have already committed sexual assault in the prison? > MyHypatia literally made the same point you're making in their original comment. Specifically, they said that putting trans women in women's prisons would be imposing the threat of rape on cis women. After I pointed out that cis women already rape other cis women in women's prisons, they clarified that it was actually impregnation they were really worried about introducing, not rape as such. I don't think my criticism of this concern has been addressed.
    - eropple 5y ago
      I think your posts in this thread are downright admirable, and for that reason, in case you're not aware (and if you are, readers probably aren't)--it is probably worth noting that "intact" is common TERF watchwording, pushed and intended to normalize the position that trans women are not women.
      - MyHypatia 5y ago
        I wasn't aware that some folks don't like the word "intact". What is the preferred way of referring to a trans-woman with a penis?
        jolux 5y ago
        In this context “trans woman with a penis” or “woman with a penis” is fine. You can’t go wrong with scientific language. Pretty much nobody who is trans uses the word “intact,” I would go so far as to say it’s offensive and that you should avoid using it in the future if you don’t want to offend people. I find it offensive, certainly. It’s reminiscent of transphobic people describing trans women who have had vaginoplasties as mutilated.
- MyHypatia 5y ago
  No, I don't think trans-women are more likely to be rapists. Trans-women are at high risk of sexual assault in male prisons and that should be taken seriously. Cis-women are at risk of sexual assault and being impregnated from that sexual assault if they are housed with intact trans-women. I think both of these concerns can be addressed. None of the options address everyone's needs and preferences, but are certainly better than leaving trans-women completely vulnerable in men's prisons. 1) House trans-women in a separate part of men's prisons so that they are not at high risk of sexual assault. Some people do not like this because it doesn't affirm their gender identity. 2) House trans-women in prisons for trans people. This is likely unrealistic because the number of people is small and for most inmates it would mean spending prison time far away from their community, making it harder for friends and family to visit. 3) House trans-women in women's prisons, but not force cis-women to share a cell with intact trans-women. This scenario would remove the threat that trans-women face, affirm their gender identity, but not impose an unfair burden on cis-women who fear being sexually assaulted and impregnated by intact trans-women. I think scenario (3) goes most of the way in protecting trans-women from sexual assault, allows them to serve their sentences (hopefully not too far away from family), yet still acknowledges that many cis-women in prison have been sexually assaulted or fear sexual assault by people with penises because it can result in pregnancy which creates an entire new set of physical, psychological, and moral challenges for that cis-woman.
  - jolux 5y ago
    Are you also in favor of enforcing that only cis women are allowed to be correctional officers at women's prisons, which is not currently the case?
    - MyHypatia 5y ago
      No. Correctional officers do not sleep next to prisoners in the same cell every night, so it doesn't create the same threat and fear. Sexual assault by correctional officers is a problem that also needs to be better addressed. But that's true regardless of the question on how to house incarcerated trans-women.

jolux 5y ago

> I don't dispute that cis-women can sexually assault other cis-women, and that sexual assault is a problem in men's prisons and women's prisons and exists with or without the presence of trans men and women. In that case you're hard pressed to argue why housing trans women in women's prisons exacerbates this issue, unless you think trans women are more likely to be rapists. Excluding an entire population on the basis that some of them might rape people is not just if rape is already a problem. > To completely stop sexual assault in prisons, people would have to be housed in separate cells. I mostly agree, but it's very easy to construct a solution to these problems while ignoring the present reality. Almost no trans people are currently housed in prisons that accord with their gender identity, and 35% of trans people in prisons themselves report having been sexually assaulted in the past year as of 2015 [1]. The status quo is pretty dire for them too, and their safety should be weighed against the safety of the cis people they might otherwise be housed with. https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/transgender-women-are-nearly-always-incarcerated-men-s-putting-many-n1142436 https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/transgender-women-ar...

fastball 5y ago
Without any stats for transwomen in particular, human males are more likely to be rapists, and an intact transwoman is closer to a man than a ciswoman is, no? Unless you think that the reason men are more likely to be rapists is purely a result of their gender identity and has nothing to do with biology. With regards to the danger of trans people being sexually assaulted in prisons: yes, it is absolutely a problem. MyHypatia literally made the same point you're making in their original comment.
- jolux 5y ago
  Side request: if it doesn't bother you too much I would prefer you refer to trans women with penises as trans women with penises rather than as "intact" trans women. Such phrasing suggests that trans women without penises are damaged. > Without any stats for transwomen in particular, human males are more likely to be rapists, and an intact transwoman is closer to a man than a ciswoman is, no? This argument is rather tangential. Is there any empirical evidence that trans women are more likely to sexually assault people than cis women? Is the median trans woman more likely to sexually assault people than cis women who have been convicted of sexual assault, or who have already committed sexual assault in the prison? > MyHypatia literally made the same point you're making in their original comment. Specifically, they said that putting trans women in women's prisons would be imposing the threat of rape on cis women. After I pointed out that cis women already rape other cis women in women's prisons, they clarified that it was actually impregnation they were really worried about introducing, not rape as such. I don't think my criticism of this concern has been addressed.
  - eropple 5y ago
    I think your posts in this thread are downright admirable, and for that reason, in case you're not aware (and if you are, readers probably aren't)--it is probably worth noting that "intact" is common TERF watchwording, pushed and intended to normalize the position that trans women are not women.
    - MyHypatia 5y ago
      I wasn't aware that some folks don't like the word "intact". What is the preferred way of referring to a trans-woman with a penis?
      - jolux 5y ago
        In this context “trans woman with a penis” or “woman with a penis” is fine. You can’t go wrong with scientific language. Pretty much nobody who is trans uses the word “intact,” I would go so far as to say it’s offensive and that you should avoid using it in the future if you don’t want to offend people. I find it offensive, certainly. It’s reminiscent of transphobic people describing trans women who have had vaginoplasties as mutilated.
MyHypatia 5y ago
No, I don't think trans-women are more likely to be rapists. Trans-women are at high risk of sexual assault in male prisons and that should be taken seriously. Cis-women are at risk of sexual assault and being impregnated from that sexual assault if they are housed with intact trans-women. I think both of these concerns can be addressed. None of the options address everyone's needs and preferences, but are certainly better than leaving trans-women completely vulnerable in men's prisons. 1) House trans-women in a separate part of men's prisons so that they are not at high risk of sexual assault. Some people do not like this because it doesn't affirm their gender identity. 2) House trans-women in prisons for trans people. This is likely unrealistic because the number of people is small and for most inmates it would mean spending prison time far away from their community, making it harder for friends and family to visit. 3) House trans-women in women's prisons, but not force cis-women to share a cell with intact trans-women. This scenario would remove the threat that trans-women face, affirm their gender identity, but not impose an unfair burden on cis-women who fear being sexually assaulted and impregnated by intact trans-women. I think scenario (3) goes most of the way in protecting trans-women from sexual assault, allows them to serve their sentences (hopefully not too far away from family), yet still acknowledges that many cis-women in prison have been sexually assaulted or fear sexual assault by people with penises because it can result in pregnancy which creates an entire new set of physical, psychological, and moral challenges for that cis-woman.
- jolux 5y ago
  Are you also in favor of enforcing that only cis women are allowed to be correctional officers at women's prisons, which is not currently the case?
  - MyHypatia 5y ago
    No. Correctional officers do not sleep next to prisoners in the same cell every night, so it doesn't create the same threat and fear. Sexual assault by correctional officers is a problem that also needs to be better addressed. But that's true regardless of the question on how to house incarcerated trans-women.