4 ms·

TERF is a pejorative term, I wouldn’t use it unless you are trying to attack feminists.

millzlane 5y ago
In academic discourse, there is no consensus on whether or not TERF constitutes a slur. But if we want to be accommodating to those who take offense with the term, we can use the term Gender Critical.
- plank_time 5y ago
  “Trans-exclusionary radical feminist” sounds pretty pejorative, most especially the “radical” part.
  - paulv 5y ago
    "Radical feminism" is a branch of feminism. It is not used as a pejorative in the acronym.
  - ratww 5y ago
    "Radical Feminist" is the only part of the term that everyone agrees is not pejorative. It is a real branch inside feminism, which lots of women identify with, and it doesn't mean what most people think it does. Here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_feminism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_feminism
    - truffdog 5y ago
      For some reason I cannot recall, a friend of mine had me read a bunch of proper radfem terf blogs back in like, 2010. I remember being impressed with the coherence of their worldview, even if it, uh, was not flattering. Men were all inherently bad, penis-in-vagina sex was inherently rape, lesbians were good, trans-women were infiltrators and trans-men deserters.
  - 95014_refugee 5y ago
    You can say "gender essentialist" if you feel that TERF is too loaded, but it boils down to the same thing; it's a position that denies identity rather than accepting it. It's only pejorative in the sense that it attempts to accurately describe the motives of a set of individuals who aren't comfortable with the way those motives are widely regarded. In that sense it's about as pejorative as "racist".
  - 9wzYQbTYsAIc 5y ago
    That is the danger of interpreting technical jargon without having the technical background. It will get you in trouble when you are talking about software just the same as when talking about science. It might be loaded with denotation outside of the scientific community, but the word “radical” has some various scientific meanings, as other commenters have noted.
  - freemint 5y ago
    I think "trans-exclusionary conservative feminist" would be way more pejorative to the feminists in question.
- hackinthebochs 5y ago
  >In academic discourse, there is no consensus on whether or not TERF constitutes a slur. All you have to do is look at how the term is used in the wild to determine if its a slur. Anyone who can claim it isn't is being disingenuous.
  - apocolyps6 5y ago
    > All you have to do is look at how the term is used By that logic, is "white supremacist" (or racist) a slur? I see it used in just about the same way.
    - hackinthebochs 5y ago
      It's tricky. They are certainly used in slur-like ways these days. I would say the difference is that white supremacist and racist are pre-existing terms that are widely considered to be neutral descriptive terms. You can use neutral terms in non-neutral ways and over time they may start to take on the slur connotation. But I don't think we are there yet with the established terms.
      - apocolyps6 5y ago
        Is there a way to express distaste for racists that doesn't use the word like a slur? I'm wondering to what extent statements like "racist is a slur" is equivalent to "people frequently express distaste for racists"
        hackinthebochs 5y ago
        You can certainly be explicit about the negative evaluation, e.g. "racism sucks", "being a racist is not cool". The issue with language is that context imbues words with meaning. So when you use a term in such a way that the dynamics between the term and the context leads to associating the negative connotation of the context to the word itself, further usages of the word then carries that negative connotation with it. In the case of slurs, they no longer (or never did) carry any neutral meaning. So the difference between expressing distaste and using a slur is how the negative connotation is expressed.
- 9wzYQbTYsAIc 5y ago
  Citation?
r00fus 5y ago
Those who are called TERFs are feminists in name only. The vast majority of self-described feminists don't agree with the TERF platform.
- nobodyandproud 5y ago
  This seems like a “No true scotsman” argument. Feminism covers a range of thoughts or beliefs, to promote advocacy.
SirHound 5y ago
Its not an attack on feminists though?
- ben_w 5y ago
  I read the original comment by @caeril as saying that Feminists are TERFs, which would not be accurate as the expansion of the acronym is “Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminists”. From what I’ve seen reported, cis women are on average more relaxed than cis men about trans women.
  - screye 5y ago
    Aren't a majority of the TERFs specifically 2nd wave Feminists who who do not like the idea of 'passing' as a female being reinforced. This as because they spent their lives fighting so that women did not have to abide by social norms enforced on them. From their POV, since gender is social, a trans-gender person reinforcing the need for transition to enjoy social aspects of being a woman is actively hostile to their goal of making social norms around gender be deemphasized. The criticisms of transgenderism by TERFs have being a Feminist (in this case 2nd wave) at its very core. Removing it loses a lot of nuance of their specific criticisms.
    - ben_w 5y ago
      I am unfamiliar with any survey specifically focusing with that much depth on people who exclude trans people, do you have a link?
moate 5y ago
How do you define a TERF without calling them a TERF (and distinguishing them from other Radical Feminists or mainstream 4th wave feminists)? If we can't call a spade a spade, what shall we call it?
UncleMeat 5y ago
FARTs is better, since it doesn't allow transphobia to co-opt feminism.

In academic discourse, there is no consensus on whether or not TERF constitutes a slur. But if we want to be accommodating to those who take offense with the term, we can use the term Gender Critical.

plank_time 5y ago
“Trans-exclusionary radical feminist” sounds pretty pejorative, most especially the “radical” part.
- paulv 5y ago
  "Radical feminism" is a branch of feminism. It is not used as a pejorative in the acronym.
- ratww 5y ago
  "Radical Feminist" is the only part of the term that everyone agrees is not pejorative. It is a real branch inside feminism, which lots of women identify with, and it doesn't mean what most people think it does. Here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_feminism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_feminism
  - truffdog 5y ago
    For some reason I cannot recall, a friend of mine had me read a bunch of proper radfem terf blogs back in like, 2010. I remember being impressed with the coherence of their worldview, even if it, uh, was not flattering. Men were all inherently bad, penis-in-vagina sex was inherently rape, lesbians were good, trans-women were infiltrators and trans-men deserters.
- 95014_refugee 5y ago
  You can say "gender essentialist" if you feel that TERF is too loaded, but it boils down to the same thing; it's a position that denies identity rather than accepting it. It's only pejorative in the sense that it attempts to accurately describe the motives of a set of individuals who aren't comfortable with the way those motives are widely regarded. In that sense it's about as pejorative as "racist".
- 9wzYQbTYsAIc 5y ago
  That is the danger of interpreting technical jargon without having the technical background. It will get you in trouble when you are talking about software just the same as when talking about science. It might be loaded with denotation outside of the scientific community, but the word “radical” has some various scientific meanings, as other commenters have noted.
- freemint 5y ago
  I think "trans-exclusionary conservative feminist" would be way more pejorative to the feminists in question.
hackinthebochs 5y ago
>In academic discourse, there is no consensus on whether or not TERF constitutes a slur. All you have to do is look at how the term is used in the wild to determine if its a slur. Anyone who can claim it isn't is being disingenuous.
- apocolyps6 5y ago
  > All you have to do is look at how the term is used By that logic, is "white supremacist" (or racist) a slur? I see it used in just about the same way.
  - hackinthebochs 5y ago
    It's tricky. They are certainly used in slur-like ways these days. I would say the difference is that white supremacist and racist are pre-existing terms that are widely considered to be neutral descriptive terms. You can use neutral terms in non-neutral ways and over time they may start to take on the slur connotation. But I don't think we are there yet with the established terms.
    - apocolyps6 5y ago
      Is there a way to express distaste for racists that doesn't use the word like a slur? I'm wondering to what extent statements like "racist is a slur" is equivalent to "people frequently express distaste for racists"
      - hackinthebochs 5y ago
        You can certainly be explicit about the negative evaluation, e.g. "racism sucks", "being a racist is not cool". The issue with language is that context imbues words with meaning. So when you use a term in such a way that the dynamics between the term and the context leads to associating the negative connotation of the context to the word itself, further usages of the word then carries that negative connotation with it. In the case of slurs, they no longer (or never did) carry any neutral meaning. So the difference between expressing distaste and using a slur is how the negative connotation is expressed.
9wzYQbTYsAIc 5y ago
Citation?

r00fus 5y ago

Those who are called TERFs are feminists in name only. The vast majority of self-described feminists don't agree with the TERF platform.

nobodyandproud 5y ago
This seems like a “No true scotsman” argument. Feminism covers a range of thoughts or beliefs, to promote advocacy.

SirHound 5y ago

Its not an attack on feminists though?

ben_w 5y ago
I read the original comment by @caeril as saying that Feminists are TERFs, which would not be accurate as the expansion of the acronym is “Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminists”. From what I’ve seen reported, cis women are on average more relaxed than cis men about trans women.
- screye 5y ago
  Aren't a majority of the TERFs specifically 2nd wave Feminists who who do not like the idea of 'passing' as a female being reinforced. This as because they spent their lives fighting so that women did not have to abide by social norms enforced on them. From their POV, since gender is social, a trans-gender person reinforcing the need for transition to enjoy social aspects of being a woman is actively hostile to their goal of making social norms around gender be deemphasized. The criticisms of transgenderism by TERFs have being a Feminist (in this case 2nd wave) at its very core. Removing it loses a lot of nuance of their specific criticisms.
  - ben_w 5y ago
    I am unfamiliar with any survey specifically focusing with that much depth on people who exclude trans people, do you have a link?

moate 5y ago

How do you define a TERF without calling them a TERF (and distinguishing them from other Radical Feminists or mainstream 4th wave feminists)? If we can't call a spade a spade, what shall we call it?

UncleMeat 5y ago

FARTs is better, since it doesn't allow transphobia to co-opt feminism.