4 ms·

It took a lot of mental self-awareness on my part, and reading a lot of such statements, to recognise how strongly I've been mentally programmed (brainwashed) b

by tomp 5y ago

It took a lot of mental self-awareness on my part, and reading a lot of such statements, to recognise how strongly I've been mentally programmed (brainwashed) by society to think of men as evil, and not even flinch when I used to read statements like the one above (implying / assuming that men are, by default, extremely violent and dangerous, and that everyone is justified by judging every man as such). It's easier to see if you replace "men" (currently a non-favoured demographic) by e.g. "black" (currently a favoured demographic). > Do you recognize that there are actual reasons that a white person might not want to go into a bathroom with 5 black people in it?

bjoli 5y ago
I am a man, and I don't want to go in to the same bathroom as 5 other men, especially not of they are a group and drunk. The reason is simple: I have found it much more common for men to take pleasure in having power over other people by threat of violence. They are assholes of course, but that shit is pretty common. I would even claim that anyone that says otherwise probably never did more than 4 pub rounds. Or went to a public school.
- read_if_gay_ 5y ago
  There’s also actual data that black people commit an outsized percentage of violent crime in the US yet any statement like this with “black” substituted for “men” would be downvoted into oblivion. The common argument is that it’s really society’s mistreatment of black people which is to blame for the criminality. Why is that same argument not applied here?
  - jsaflas 5y ago
    Let's concede your argument that Black men are more dangerous than white men (I don't think so, at least not due to genetic differences). At best the data shows a factor of 2 more violent. Men are more violent than women by 2 orders of magnitude. And, unlike your example, there is no doubt its physiological in nature We have testicles and therefore are frothing with testosterone. And it's not unique to humans; farmers castrate bulls to make them docile in an ox team.
    - read_if_gay_ 5y ago
      > Men are more violent than women by 2 orders of magnitude Natives are more violent than Asians by a full order of magnitude, too. Should Asians demand separate restrooms from Natives? > And, unlike your example, there is no doubt its physiological in nature No doubt all of it is physiological? Because... testosterone? While, if data points towards some race being more violent, then it’s a mere “I don’t think so”? I think such a big claim needs a better explanation.
- CRConrad 5y ago
  > I am a man, and I don't want to go in to the same bathroom as 5 other men, especially not of they are a group and drunk. The reason is simple: I have found it much more common for men to take pleasure in having power over other people by threat of violence. Five drunk guys at the urinal? Heck, there's reason enough to avoid that just because they're liable to piss all over your shoes.
CapmCrackaWaka 5y ago
This is a sore subject, but the difference here is that rape is an evolutionary artifact left over from when it was advantageous (from a reproductive standpoint) to do so. It was, quite frankly, an evolutionary advantage for men to rape women. I personally doubt this urge is different based on race. In fact, women’s fear or rape is one of the only times I find it acceptable to use phrasing like you described.
- read_if_gay_ 5y ago
  We are already so far into hating men that we’re fine with basically saying the desire to rape is evolutionally wired into all male brains? No complaints about sexism or anything?
  - CapmCrackaWaka 5y ago
    You can acknowledge that premise without ‘hating men’. I am a man, and I have no problems admitting that rape was a legitimate tactic for our ancestors to pass their genetics along. It’s a fact that we’ll have to deal with. On the other hand, when it comes to issues of race, I’m hard pressed to believe there are massive evolutionary/biological differences that need to be accounted for.
    - read_if_gay_ 5y ago
      Let me put forward this absurd argument: Rape was a legitimate tactic for females to pass their genes along too, because if your male kid inherits rapist tendencies he’s more likely to procreate. So female brains really evolved in such a way that they want to be raped, and that’s why seductive clothing and rape kinks exist. The point being: evolutionary biology is great for rationalizing just about any theory and therefore isn’t really a solid foundation for making conclusions about large swathes of the population. Putting forward an argument like this doesn’t add much except for more male self hate. I don’t think you should have no problem “admitting” this.
      - CapmCrackaWaka 5y ago
IncRnd 5y ago
Classes of people are different from each other. That's not to say that one person is better than another. It's also not saying that any class of person is better than another. It is saying that all people are different, and there are classes of people, such as men, women, blacks, whites, trans, cis, and all sorts of classifications that differ in aggregate. The reason we humans can get through life is by discriminating, in the sense of distinguishing, classes of people. This is NOT prejudice but is sensible. After all, there is a difference between discrimination and prejudice. Please consider this: "Honey, stay here. Don't play with those 5 men at the end of the block." Are all strangers bad? Are all men bad? Are older people bad? Are all people at the end of the block bad? No, of course not. But, we need to remain sensible to circumstances and sensitive to people's situations.
whoooooo123 5y ago
What? Women have all kinds of rational reasons to be wary of strange men they don't know, especially in a secluded place like a bathroom. This isn't because "men are evil" or that all men are violent and dangerous, it's because some men are violent and dangerous, and even if that's only 1% of men, it only takes one violent man to ruin your life, so women don't like to take risks. The same isn't true in reverse because women don't pose a physical threat to men in anything resembling the same way. I'm male. My relationships with women improved dramatically once I realised just how safety-conscious women need to be on a regular basis, at a level that men don't experience at all. But sure, men are the real victims.

by tomp 5y ago

bjoli 5y ago

I am a man, and I don't want to go in to the same bathroom as 5 other men, especially not of they are a group and drunk. The reason is simple: I have found it much more common for men to take pleasure in having power over other people by threat of violence. They are assholes of course, but that shit is pretty common. I would even claim that anyone that says otherwise probably never did more than 4 pub rounds. Or went to a public school.

read_if_gay_ 5y ago
There’s also actual data that black people commit an outsized percentage of violent crime in the US yet any statement like this with “black” substituted for “men” would be downvoted into oblivion. The common argument is that it’s really society’s mistreatment of black people which is to blame for the criminality. Why is that same argument not applied here?
- jsaflas 5y ago
  Let's concede your argument that Black men are more dangerous than white men (I don't think so, at least not due to genetic differences). At best the data shows a factor of 2 more violent. Men are more violent than women by 2 orders of magnitude. And, unlike your example, there is no doubt its physiological in nature We have testicles and therefore are frothing with testosterone. And it's not unique to humans; farmers castrate bulls to make them docile in an ox team.
  - read_if_gay_ 5y ago
    > Men are more violent than women by 2 orders of magnitude Natives are more violent than Asians by a full order of magnitude, too. Should Asians demand separate restrooms from Natives? > And, unlike your example, there is no doubt its physiological in nature No doubt all of it is physiological? Because... testosterone? While, if data points towards some race being more violent, then it’s a mere “I don’t think so”? I think such a big claim needs a better explanation.
CRConrad 5y ago
> I am a man, and I don't want to go in to the same bathroom as 5 other men, especially not of they are a group and drunk. The reason is simple: I have found it much more common for men to take pleasure in having power over other people by threat of violence. Five drunk guys at the urinal? Heck, there's reason enough to avoid that just because they're liable to piss all over your shoes.

CapmCrackaWaka 5y ago

This is a sore subject, but the difference here is that rape is an evolutionary artifact left over from when it was advantageous (from a reproductive standpoint) to do so. It was, quite frankly, an evolutionary advantage for men to rape women. I personally doubt this urge is different based on race. In fact, women’s fear or rape is one of the only times I find it acceptable to use phrasing like you described.

read_if_gay_ 5y ago
We are already so far into hating men that we’re fine with basically saying the desire to rape is evolutionally wired into all male brains? No complaints about sexism or anything?
- CapmCrackaWaka 5y ago
  You can acknowledge that premise without ‘hating men’. I am a man, and I have no problems admitting that rape was a legitimate tactic for our ancestors to pass their genetics along. It’s a fact that we’ll have to deal with. On the other hand, when it comes to issues of race, I’m hard pressed to believe there are massive evolutionary/biological differences that need to be accounted for.
  - read_if_gay_ 5y ago
    Let me put forward this absurd argument: Rape was a legitimate tactic for females to pass their genes along too, because if your male kid inherits rapist tendencies he’s more likely to procreate. So female brains really evolved in such a way that they want to be raped, and that’s why seductive clothing and rape kinks exist. The point being: evolutionary biology is great for rationalizing just about any theory and therefore isn’t really a solid foundation for making conclusions about large swathes of the population. Putting forward an argument like this doesn’t add much except for more male self hate. I don’t think you should have no problem “admitting” this.
    - CapmCrackaWaka 5y ago

IncRnd 5y ago

Classes of people are different from each other. That's not to say that one person is better than another. It's also not saying that any class of person is better than another. It is saying that all people are different, and there are classes of people, such as men, women, blacks, whites, trans, cis, and all sorts of classifications that differ in aggregate. The reason we humans can get through life is by discriminating, in the sense of distinguishing, classes of people. This is NOT prejudice but is sensible. After all, there is a difference between discrimination and prejudice. Please consider this: "Honey, stay here. Don't play with those 5 men at the end of the block." Are all strangers bad? Are all men bad? Are older people bad? Are all people at the end of the block bad? No, of course not. But, we need to remain sensible to circumstances and sensitive to people's situations.

whoooooo123 5y ago

What? Women have all kinds of rational reasons to be wary of strange men they don't know, especially in a secluded place like a bathroom. This isn't because "men are evil" or that all men are violent and dangerous, it's because some men are violent and dangerous, and even if that's only 1% of men, it only takes one violent man to ruin your life, so women don't like to take risks. The same isn't true in reverse because women don't pose a physical threat to men in anything resembling the same way. I'm male. My relationships with women improved dramatically once I realised just how safety-conscious women need to be on a regular basis, at a level that men don't experience at all. But sure, men are the real victims.