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> I don't mean to downplay what is happening because it is happening but do you not think the amount of outrage this topic generates surpasses the level of impa

> I don't mean to downplay what is happening because it is happening but do you not think the amount of outrage this topic generates surpasses the level of impact we can have assuming we fix it? It just feels like we're being distracted. But downplaying it is exactly what you are doing, literally. To answer your main question, though: the very small community that we are talking about is disproportionately being subjected to murder, physical abuse, emotional abuse, and widespread discrimination. The disproportionate harms that this small community is subject to is the key to understanding the level of outrage being evoked on their behalf.

dvt 5y ago
> disproportionately being subjected to murder, physical abuse, emotional abuse, and widespread discrimination. This is provably untrue. Not that it isn't a tragedy, but in 2020, 44 trans people were killed[1] in the US. This is a rounding error even when looking at "merely" just hate crime statistics (for example, in 2019, the FBI reported ~7000 criminal offenses[2] in the "hate crime" category). I get it, people are passionate about it, companies change their logos, everyone posts about it on social media, but let's not perpetuate these myths. [1] https://www.them.us/story/44-trans-people-killed-2020-worst-year-for-transphobic-violence https://www.them.us/story/44-trans-people-killed-2020-worst-... [2] https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/fbi-releases-2019-hate-crime-statistics https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/fbi-release...
- Karrot_Kream 5y ago
  > This is provably untrue. Both of you are correct, you're just looking at probabilities conditioned in the opposite way. You're looking at P(trans | killed), which is low. The parent post is looking at P(killed | trans), which is quite high. Understandably, if you are trans P(killed | trans) is a lot more relevant to you than P(trans | killed).
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - dvt 5y ago
    I don't agree, we were talking about proportionality. 0.6% of the US adult population identify as trans (1,254,000). Of that 0.6%, 44 were killed. The math is simple. The overall murder rate in the USA is 0.005% (population: 328 million, yearly murders: 16,425). The per-capita murder rates of trans people in the USA is 0.0035%, barely over half the national average. To make the claim that trans people are disproportionately affected by crime/violence is simply not true.
    - Karrot_Kream 5y ago
      > To make the claim that trans people are disproportionately affected by crime/violence is simply not true. It's well-known that many trans hate crimes go unreported or misreported (as the victim is misgendered). So unless you really think it was highly unlikely for there to be >= 19 unreported/misreported trans deaths (19 + 44 / 1_254_000 > 0.005%), then trans death rates are probably higher. At least one source which mentions it: https://www.out.com/crime/2020/7/02/these-are-trans-people-killed-so-far-2020 https://www.out.com/crime/2020/7/02/these-are-trans-people-k...
      - dvt 5y ago
        We're dangerously getting into "no true Scotsman" territory here. Even being as charitable as I can, it just seems that you don't like the data because it doesn't fit your narrative.
        9wzYQbTYsAIc 5y ago
        > you don’t like the data because it doesn’t fit your narrative In counter argument, you don’t like the laws of logic and probability because they don’t fit your narrative. Edit: Furthermore, do we not agree, in the United States, under the rule of law, that it is a failure of civil responsibility, punishable by death in some jurisdictions, to murder even 1 person, let alone 44? How is your argument anything other than we must do everything within our rights and capacity, as a country, to prevent each and every failure of civic responsibility?
- FemmeAndroid 5y ago
  > Not that it isn't a tragedy, but in 2020, 44 trans people were killed[1] in the US. This is a rounding error even when looking at "merely" just hate crime statistics I'm confused. How can you compare 44 deaths to 7000 offenses? (Including 55 deaths, across all hate crimes.) I'm not arguing that trans people are disproportionately killed or assaulted, but that we are in no way a rounding error. Using your source, the 2019 FBI report: Of the 8,559 criminal offenses, 51 were Murder and nonnegligent manslaughter. https://ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime/2019/topic-pages/tables/table-2.xls https://ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime/2019/topic-pages/tables/table... 224 offenses were based on Gender Identity, this includes 173 Anti-transgender offenses, and 51 Anti-Gender Non-Conforming offenses. 342 offenses not included in those numbers we’re targeting “Anti-Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, or Transgender (Mixed Group)” 5 of the 51 Murders and Nonnegligent Manslaugters were perpetrated because the victim was in the group "Anti-Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, or Transgender (Mixed Group)". 1 of the 51 Murders and Nonnegligent Manslaughters were perpetrated on the basis of Gender Identity. https://ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime/2019/topic-pages/tables/table-4.xls https://ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime/2019/topic-pages/tables/table... 5 of the 30 rapes as hate crimes, were perpetrated on the basis of the victim's Gender Identity. 1 of the 30 rapes as hate crimes were perpetrated because the victim was in the group "Anti-Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, or Transgender (Mixed Group)".
- 9wzYQbTYsAIc 5y ago
  Disproportionate in relation to the rates of the same for blind people, per the parent commenters assertions.
josteink 5y ago
> the very small community that we are talking about is disproportionately being subjected to murder, physical abuse, emotional abuse, and widespread discrimination. Citation needed. From what I can tell they are being given more leeway than any other group, and anyone who dares argue against their “rights” risks losing their job. Trans-people does absolutely not to seem to be at risk anywhere.
- 9wzYQbTYsAIc 5y ago
  > Citation needed Technically, no, I’d posit that in the scientific community of focus on this topic, it is considered common knowledge and likely an “a priori” logical conclusion. But let me Google that for you: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C14&q=transgender+crime+victimization&oq=transgender+crime+victim#d=gs_qabs&u=%23p%3DYMCVRagm5NwJ https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C14&q=tra...
- 9wzYQbTYsAIc 5y ago
  > From what I can tell they are being given more leeway than any other group, and anyone who dares argue against their “rights” risks losing their job. Trans-people does absolutely not to seem to be at risk anywhere. You might refresh yourself on HN site guidelines. Your comment would have been much more interesting if you had declined to include the quoted portion.
- alisonkisk 5y ago
  Leeway? You think murderers and batterers give leeway to transpeople?

dvt 5y ago

> disproportionately being subjected to murder, physical abuse, emotional abuse, and widespread discrimination. This is provably untrue. Not that it isn't a tragedy, but in 2020, 44 trans people were killed[1] in the US. This is a rounding error even when looking at "merely" just hate crime statistics (for example, in 2019, the FBI reported ~7000 criminal offenses[2] in the "hate crime" category). I get it, people are passionate about it, companies change their logos, everyone posts about it on social media, but let's not perpetuate these myths. [1] https://www.them.us/story/44-trans-people-killed-2020-worst-year-for-transphobic-violence https://www.them.us/story/44-trans-people-killed-2020-worst-... [2] https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/fbi-releases-2019-hate-crime-statistics https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/fbi-release...

Karrot_Kream 5y ago
> This is provably untrue. Both of you are correct, you're just looking at probabilities conditioned in the opposite way. You're looking at P(trans | killed), which is low. The parent post is looking at P(killed | trans), which is quite high. Understandably, if you are trans P(killed | trans) is a lot more relevant to you than P(trans | killed).
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- dvt 5y ago
  I don't agree, we were talking about proportionality. 0.6% of the US adult population identify as trans (1,254,000). Of that 0.6%, 44 were killed. The math is simple. The overall murder rate in the USA is 0.005% (population: 328 million, yearly murders: 16,425). The per-capita murder rates of trans people in the USA is 0.0035%, barely over half the national average. To make the claim that trans people are disproportionately affected by crime/violence is simply not true.
  - Karrot_Kream 5y ago
    > To make the claim that trans people are disproportionately affected by crime/violence is simply not true. It's well-known that many trans hate crimes go unreported or misreported (as the victim is misgendered). So unless you really think it was highly unlikely for there to be >= 19 unreported/misreported trans deaths (19 + 44 / 1_254_000 > 0.005%), then trans death rates are probably higher. At least one source which mentions it: https://www.out.com/crime/2020/7/02/these-are-trans-people-killed-so-far-2020 https://www.out.com/crime/2020/7/02/these-are-trans-people-k...
    - dvt 5y ago
      We're dangerously getting into "no true Scotsman" territory here. Even being as charitable as I can, it just seems that you don't like the data because it doesn't fit your narrative.
      - 9wzYQbTYsAIc 5y ago
        > you don’t like the data because it doesn’t fit your narrative In counter argument, you don’t like the laws of logic and probability because they don’t fit your narrative. Edit: Furthermore, do we not agree, in the United States, under the rule of law, that it is a failure of civil responsibility, punishable by death in some jurisdictions, to murder even 1 person, let alone 44? How is your argument anything other than we must do everything within our rights and capacity, as a country, to prevent each and every failure of civic responsibility?
FemmeAndroid 5y ago
> Not that it isn't a tragedy, but in 2020, 44 trans people were killed[1] in the US. This is a rounding error even when looking at "merely" just hate crime statistics I'm confused. How can you compare 44 deaths to 7000 offenses? (Including 55 deaths, across all hate crimes.) I'm not arguing that trans people are disproportionately killed or assaulted, but that we are in no way a rounding error. Using your source, the 2019 FBI report: Of the 8,559 criminal offenses, 51 were Murder and nonnegligent manslaughter. https://ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime/2019/topic-pages/tables/table-2.xls https://ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime/2019/topic-pages/tables/table... 224 offenses were based on Gender Identity, this includes 173 Anti-transgender offenses, and 51 Anti-Gender Non-Conforming offenses. 342 offenses not included in those numbers we’re targeting “Anti-Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, or Transgender (Mixed Group)” 5 of the 51 Murders and Nonnegligent Manslaugters were perpetrated because the victim was in the group "Anti-Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, or Transgender (Mixed Group)". 1 of the 51 Murders and Nonnegligent Manslaughters were perpetrated on the basis of Gender Identity. https://ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime/2019/topic-pages/tables/table-4.xls https://ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime/2019/topic-pages/tables/table... 5 of the 30 rapes as hate crimes, were perpetrated on the basis of the victim's Gender Identity. 1 of the 30 rapes as hate crimes were perpetrated because the victim was in the group "Anti-Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, or Transgender (Mixed Group)".
9wzYQbTYsAIc 5y ago
Disproportionate in relation to the rates of the same for blind people, per the parent commenters assertions.

josteink 5y ago

> the very small community that we are talking about is disproportionately being subjected to murder, physical abuse, emotional abuse, and widespread discrimination. Citation needed. From what I can tell they are being given more leeway than any other group, and anyone who dares argue against their “rights” risks losing their job. Trans-people does absolutely not to seem to be at risk anywhere.

9wzYQbTYsAIc 5y ago
> Citation needed Technically, no, I’d posit that in the scientific community of focus on this topic, it is considered common knowledge and likely an “a priori” logical conclusion. But let me Google that for you: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C14&q=transgender+crime+victimization&oq=transgender+crime+victim#d=gs_qabs&u=%23p%3DYMCVRagm5NwJ https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C14&q=tra...
9wzYQbTYsAIc 5y ago
> From what I can tell they are being given more leeway than any other group, and anyone who dares argue against their “rights” risks losing their job. Trans-people does absolutely not to seem to be at risk anywhere. You might refresh yourself on HN site guidelines. Your comment would have been much more interesting if you had declined to include the quoted portion.
alisonkisk 5y ago
Leeway? You think murderers and batterers give leeway to transpeople?