6 ms·

Sure there is. My legal name and the name I sign on documents is "Michael" but I could have a preference for "Mike". Are you really going to deny that to me bec

Sure there is. My legal name and the name I sign on documents is "Michael" but I could have a preference for "Mike". Are you really going to deny that to me because there is an "observable reality" that is different from my preference?

LanceH 5y ago
Are you going to lose your shit, call my boss and try to get me fired when I call you Michael because it's what's written down for everyone to see?
- mike00632 5y ago
  I think it's pretty clear that other people's preference for nicknames (or gender pronouns) are not a burden on you and your insistance to call people by the wrong name (or gender) is for some other reason. That was my point. This isn't about trans people causing undue burden on you.
  - turfwars2 5y ago
    Pretending people are not the biological sex they actually are, to me that's an undue burden. I don't have to pretend a furry is an actual dog. The truth, evidential truth about the World, is central to my identity; why do I have to yield my identity to others? You identify as the third coming of Moses, well that's nice for you, why do I have to get involved in your delusion? You're a male that feels like a female, well ok, why do I need to care again?
    - mike00632 5y ago
      You don't have to pretend. Nobody thinks my name is actually "Mike" but if I ask you to call me that instead of "Michael" then what is it to you? And if you really feel that your gender is being intruded upon by trans people then i encourage you to find something more meaningful and unique to attach your identity to, because your manhood feeling threatened is not a respectable reason to deny trans people their identity.
    - albedoa 5y ago
      > why do I need to care again? I was going to ask you the same!
- iaml 5y ago
  You describe one possible situation, let me imagine a different one. I say that I like going by Mike, and you keep making a point of always referring to me as Michael even when it doesn't really make sense to go full formal. After multiple months of it, I kinda get tired of this and decide to accept offer from another company and tell our boss that. When they ask me why I want to leave I'll be sure to mention that, and maybe they'll evaluate our productivity and decide it's better for business to just fire you instead. See how different those two situations are even thought the premise is the same?
cheeseomlit 5y ago
A name is not an intrinsic trait of a person, it's a legal abstraction. Your name has no meaning outside of it's designation as a name and you can change it at any time. 'Mike', 'Michael', and 'Michelangelo' all mean the same thing- it's just an arbitrary word used to identify a person. 'Him' and 'Her' on the other hand are not arbitrary and do not mean the same thing, they refer to directly observable biological traits that cannot be changed.
- karpierz 5y ago
  How do you tell if someone is a 'him' or 'her'? What are the criteria you use to make that decision, and why are they immutable? (Please don't say XY chromosomes, you don't do a genetic test on everyone you meet.)
  - cheeseomlit 5y ago
    We can tell instinctively based on a whole slew of traits, within a split second of looking at a person your brain identifies their sex whether you want to or not. Skeletal structure alone is a dead giveaway.
    - karpierz 5y ago
      So if your brain instinctive recognizes someone as a "her", they're a "her"?
      - blindmute 5y ago
        Yes.
      - jhgb 5y ago
        Human brains seem really good at these things, just like they're good at for example recognizing faces. Perhaps it has something to do with evolutionary pressure for our survival?
        5y ago
munk-a 5y ago
We actually recently hit this very issue - a bad account migration resulted in everyone having flastname accounts - but that first initial and last name were based on legal names not common names - as a result a number of employees were upset at being forced to revert to birth names, especially those who had immigrated at a young age and adopted a new name. I have a friend who was named at birth after their absentee parent and really dislikes ever being called by that name. It is important and polite to use names that people personally prefer within reason.

LanceH 5y ago

Are you going to lose your shit, call my boss and try to get me fired when I call you Michael because it's what's written down for everyone to see?

mike00632 5y ago
I think it's pretty clear that other people's preference for nicknames (or gender pronouns) are not a burden on you and your insistance to call people by the wrong name (or gender) is for some other reason. That was my point. This isn't about trans people causing undue burden on you.
- turfwars2 5y ago
  Pretending people are not the biological sex they actually are, to me that's an undue burden. I don't have to pretend a furry is an actual dog. The truth, evidential truth about the World, is central to my identity; why do I have to yield my identity to others? You identify as the third coming of Moses, well that's nice for you, why do I have to get involved in your delusion? You're a male that feels like a female, well ok, why do I need to care again?
  - mike00632 5y ago
    You don't have to pretend. Nobody thinks my name is actually "Mike" but if I ask you to call me that instead of "Michael" then what is it to you? And if you really feel that your gender is being intruded upon by trans people then i encourage you to find something more meaningful and unique to attach your identity to, because your manhood feeling threatened is not a respectable reason to deny trans people their identity.
  - albedoa 5y ago
    > why do I need to care again? I was going to ask you the same!
iaml 5y ago
You describe one possible situation, let me imagine a different one. I say that I like going by Mike, and you keep making a point of always referring to me as Michael even when it doesn't really make sense to go full formal. After multiple months of it, I kinda get tired of this and decide to accept offer from another company and tell our boss that. When they ask me why I want to leave I'll be sure to mention that, and maybe they'll evaluate our productivity and decide it's better for business to just fire you instead. See how different those two situations are even thought the premise is the same?

cheeseomlit 5y ago

A name is not an intrinsic trait of a person, it's a legal abstraction. Your name has no meaning outside of it's designation as a name and you can change it at any time. 'Mike', 'Michael', and 'Michelangelo' all mean the same thing- it's just an arbitrary word used to identify a person. 'Him' and 'Her' on the other hand are not arbitrary and do not mean the same thing, they refer to directly observable biological traits that cannot be changed.

karpierz 5y ago
How do you tell if someone is a 'him' or 'her'? What are the criteria you use to make that decision, and why are they immutable? (Please don't say XY chromosomes, you don't do a genetic test on everyone you meet.)
- cheeseomlit 5y ago
  We can tell instinctively based on a whole slew of traits, within a split second of looking at a person your brain identifies their sex whether you want to or not. Skeletal structure alone is a dead giveaway.
  - karpierz 5y ago
    So if your brain instinctive recognizes someone as a "her", they're a "her"?
    - blindmute 5y ago
      Yes.
    - jhgb 5y ago
      Human brains seem really good at these things, just like they're good at for example recognizing faces. Perhaps it has something to do with evolutionary pressure for our survival?
      - 5y ago

munk-a 5y ago

We actually recently hit this very issue - a bad account migration resulted in everyone having flastname accounts - but that first initial and last name were based on legal names not common names - as a result a number of employees were upset at being forced to revert to birth names, especially those who had immigrated at a young age and adopted a new name. I have a friend who was named at birth after their absentee parent and really dislikes ever being called by that name. It is important and polite to use names that people personally prefer within reason.